Jonesy (and her Mom)

[Jonesy's mom]

So i must have gotten confused somewhere along the way - saying NO firmly while I catch her peeing on the carpet is different than getting her attention by loudly clapping. Unfortunately it's not exactly straight forward because so there are so many different philosophies on what to do when you catch a puppy peeing (that magical 2 second window when puppy can associate peeing on the carpet = bad - if that's even true, humane society website mentions the "startling noise to distract" but makes no mention of this being a specific word just take care not to scare, houstrainingapuppy.org also mentions what being upset at a puppy can lead to but makes no mention on what to do when you catch them peeing, several websites make mention of using no while you catch them - this may be just random people posting their "thoughts" or whatever worked for them even though it might not have been the most appropriate technique - the dog did stop peeing in the house...)

Point being - for newbies this is not straightforward. Especially when it's human natural instinct to say "no" to something we don't want of another person. (I understand this whole potty thing is a learning experience for us too, and that we as puppy parents have to make behavior mods as well )

But I DO totally agree with amending my technique to not saying ANYTHING when accidents happen as seems to be the consensus around the web. No matter how gently firm a "no" is, I don't want her to end up hiding or being scared or any other negative things she may pick up. I re-read the housetraining 101 thread this morning and ditched the potty pads (they make good door mats for wiping grassy muddy shoes lol) - we've been outside about 4 times since 3 am and she's doing Great!!!

[lucky&babesmom]

Sounds like your doing great! Being willing to learn and take advice without offence is a good start people leave the site because they feel people here are to straight forward,me I've always love it, They do it with love LOL

Welcome to DP from Brenda and her bunch Lucky ,Autumn and Trixie

[Phyrie]

I was determined that I would never, ever, ever say NO to Kiba, for any reason. I wanted to raise him with positive training methods, and that means no negativity, at all. Oddly enough, it really wasn't that hard. I've certainly slipped on occasion (who wouldn't shout when your dog has jumped up on your chair and has decided your chocolate cake was put up there for him to eat!) but generally, I think I've succeeded. It makes you think, I'll tell you that! Because you re-think almost everything instinctual. If I was about to say, "No", I had to stop (which is a good thing right there!) and think, "What can I say, or do INSTEAD of saying NO." Of course, this also means not aversives in handling either i.e. no swats, no shakes, no pokes. NOTHING ala Cesar!

The most I allowed myself, during training, was an "uh oh" when Kiba made a wrong decision. It was used as a non-treating marker, just to let him know that whatever it was he tried wasn't what I wanted. This is during clicker training, of course, but I think it applies to any positive-type training.

[Oliver & Henry's Mum]

Cia, thanks for the clarification on the biting and mouthing. It takes a while, as you now know after reading all of those threads, to get to the heart of things, and I appreciate your patience, and good sense of humour.

I think when you made a loud yelp, it was sincere and she learned from it, which is exactly how it should be. However, if your BF is encouraging rough biting, that is counterproductive and confusing for her. Stand your ground with him as you are right! Tell him I said so.

If you do catch her in the act, use a word that you will also use to indicate a need to go outside. For example, I always "ask" my dogs if they "need to go out?" because as pups, I always used the word out, or outside, while exiting the door, with loads of praise.

Once out there, you can teach "go pee pee" or whatever suits you. I personally don't like "go pee pee" as it's rude in public. I just call it all "potty". Every dog I've raised has learned the word "outside?" or "out?" and they do learn to actually answer the question. That takes a little while, but she will start to understand the gist of it. Although we instinctively want to shout "NO" when we see the puppy piddling on the carpet, take a deep breath and in a happy voice, say "Outside", or "Out we go". Subsequently, each time you take her out, say the same thing in the same tone of voice. You create a command essentially, but one that is positive.

Phyrie's time lines on understanding and comprehension are spot on. Just when we think they've learned something, we discover they haven't and realize that it was us humans who had learned the pattern.

Brenda is right in that we are a straight forward bunch of people. Although you mentioned the answers didn't seem so straightforward, I think you'll see a consistency of training ideas, that work and are positive. Every puppy is unique, like raising children, so there is no "one answer", merely guidelines.

You have the right idea about everything. Trust yourself, and your instincts. You are already a wonderful Doggy Mum.

Deborah

[Jonesy's mom]

Thank you all so much for the encouragement. BF came around yesterday afternoon when I made him read some stuff online. I'm feeling much more confident and supported. All of tips you give are wonderful as well and I think are really beneficial.

We had a great day yesterday - No inside potty at all! We spent a lot of time outdoors after all play times, eat/drink and naps. This morning she didn't get up at 1am - slept all the way until 4 which great in my opinion. I got a full 6 hours sleep I feel like a new person Morning outside potty was by the book ans she did great. I missed her queue a few hours later (she had eaten and I didn't put her away - I was cooking breakfast and BF turned around for something) she was off to poo on the carpet. Oh well. Neither of us did or said anything. BF picked her up and put her by the front door and then off to clean up duty. Not bad at all. I'm happy I don't spend all day cleaning up piddles out of the carpet anymore. I think we're getting there.

Other things--today will be her first vet check and we have a list of questions.

Like she seems to be very itchy after coming in from potty - looks like only on the parts that actually touch the grass. Her feet, legs and tummy & rump. We've noticed this over the last few days. I mixed up an anti-itchy spray (think I saw some tips on the health forum) and it seems to provide some relief. However today I actually rinsed her after we came back and she was noticeably less itchy. Grass sensitivity? ruh roh shaggy!

Also she started scratching at her ear. I cleaned them on tuesday but she might have something going on in there. Smelled a little strong- not bad, not foul, but not clean either. Her ears do fold down.

Also she's doing the butt scoot. So either worms, although nothing can be seen in her poo, or anal gland issues - which we discovered the magic of squeezing them last night (watched the you tube videos --Yikes!), so we'll have the vet teach us how to do it.

OK FUNNIEST thing just happened. Jonesy had a piddle (BUT she made it onto the tile near the front door!! Improvement) and she had a few drops on the little hair on her girlie parts. Well, Brian was doing yoga on the floor and could swear he could smell some left over pee pee and mentioned we should wipe her girlie parts like we do after she poos. Brian was holding her on the couch and I gave him a wipey, and suddenly he just couldn't wipe her. He just kind of looked at me like "I don't want to touch her girlie parts - you do it". But he was cool with finding her anal glands last night (didn't squeeze or anything - just wanted to see if he could feel them) and he's the chief poo inspector - up close and everything!!
SO funny! (BTW- he trimmed her hair down there too.. )

[Sadie G]

The vet will check her out completely when you take her for the first visit. Its good you have a list of questions. Sometimes we tend to forget when we get there, a list is a good thing!

I have to comment on the wiping? Do you wipe when she poo's because it messy and gets in her fur?
And the fur was trimmed in her female parts area? Can I ask why? Just wondering if that was a joke, or are you serious?

She may have reactions to grass. My Sadie is allergic to grass and breaks out in a rash if she lays in it. She gets itchy and bits the fur off of her skin where it gets red. There is no way to keep her from walking in the grass and she gets "hot spots" on her paws. She chews in those areas from it being itchy, anti itch sprays do work! We try to keep her time in the grass to a minimun which is hard for an active dog, but we manage.

I do want to welcome you to the DP, I've been on here and there the past few days and missed this thread. Jonesy is adorable!! I love that little white beard!

Linda and Sadie from Indiana

[Jonesy's mom]

Hi Sadie

Yeah the baby wipes were my idea. I used to have a white mini poodle and she'd get poo stuck on her butt fur. She was a rescue dog so I didn't know about taking care of her anal glands. Just thought she would scoot b/c she had dried poo on her or something (she didn't have worms and she went to the groomers two or three times a year so they must have taken care of it). Long story short - i cleaned her up with baby wipes and she hated it. Figured I'd get Jonesy used to it as a youngster, especially before her curly butt hair gets long and stuff really gets stuck in it.

The girlie parts hair trim was Brian's idea. I admit it was a little longish and he didn't snip it down to the skin. Just enough so pee pee drops wouldn't soak in it. I hope you don't think we like...shaved her though . Just took a little length off

Ugh - vet re-scheduled us for tomorrow.

[Deerie me]

My boy Loki has really long willy hair. I'd like to give him a trim downbelow but everytime he sees me coming at his lipstick with a pair of scissors he runs a mile.

[Oliver & Henry's Mum]

Keeping the hair trimmed in those sensitive areas is necessary, but gland squeezing is most certainly NOT!

Many dogs enjoy a little scoot now and then, especially males. I've read about more people on the DP who have had serious issues with their dogs' anal glands. However, they are the minority! In all of my years of having dogs, we have never had ONE that needed its glands expressed.

I discussed it with my Vet wondering if perhaps I was being neglectful. He assured me that most dogs do not require this. Sometimes the more one messes with nature, the most messed up it becomes. Ask your Vet about the anal glands please. Expressing them is not the same as clipping their nails, or giving them an occasional bath.

Your puppy may very well be allergic to grass. I had a Golden that was and a son that is. Right now, the grass is really growing and turning to seed. If possible, try to avoid prolonged exposure to the grass and a good wipe down with a wet facecloth on all areas that touched the grass is a good place to start.

Linda (Sadie G) has been through this more recently than I. She had some excellent tips.

Good luck!

[Jonesy's mom]

Well the vet trip was terrible!!! First we waited forever to get in an exam room, and then another 20 minutes to see the vet tech (who was very nice) and about another 15 to see the vet. Jonesy has a clean bill of health and we got the little problem spots checked out. So far so good, right?

While Dr. Miller seemed to be cool, but he was either super busy and rushing us or he was trying to push us to spend more money. So we pointed out her little rash on her belly, which he said was dermatitis and would resolve on its own. She'd be itchy but unless it started oozing, we were okay to leave it be. Brian asked if we could put anything on it to relieve the itch and he immediately wrote us up for some antibiotics? Why? He just said it would resolve on its own.

Everything else was pretty standard, vitals, teeth, eyes, nails, nose - everything I expected (just like a well baby check and i've been through those). Did her vaccines (decided to start her over since we couldn't verify her previous rounds) and everything was fine. He told us what to look out for reaction wise. We paid, we left.

The vet is 3 minutes from our apartment so we were just out of the drive way and onto the main road when Brian noticed her face swelling. We turned around and, get this, he had the nerve to suggest Jonesy had something on her face to cause her swelling before she went there!!! What??? Like, dude - you JUST examined her and nothing was there, you JUST gave her vaccines and TOLD us what the possible allergic reactions were such as FACE SWELLING. He pissed us off so bad!!! They ended up giving her a shot of benadryl and keeping her for half an hour.
The swelling seemed to have gone down and we went home.

This morning - huge puffy face, around her eyes. Looks like a furry version of Rocky Balboa after Dolph Lundgren kicked his butt. Brian is off to get some Benadrly. Her disposition is fine though. She was a little drowsy last night on the benadryl, but otherwise normal. This morning is no different. She's bouncy and playful, no vomiting or diarrhea. She hasn't touched her food yet though. I almost cried when I saw her face though. Brian too - he is not happy with that Dr. (I'm not either but Brian was furious!!!) and we will not be taking her there again.

Is she going to be alright?

[RubyJeansMom]

Oh no, poor Jonesy! Cia, I don't blame you and Brian for being unhappy, that vet sounds horrible.
Yes, a new vet is definitely in order for Jonesy.

As for the antibiotics, perhaps it's precautionary, to prevent a skin infection in case Jonesy scratches too much at it...but that's just a guess. When my Ruby had mange and was scratching like crazy, she was also on antibiotics.
It sounds like the Benadryl is doing the trick for her "Rocky Balboa" face. As long as she is acting normally she should be just fine.

Do you have any leads on another vet? Hopefully one that comes with good recommendations.

I wanted to mention, like Deb, I also used the word 'outside" whenever I caught one of the "kids" in the middle of a potty. I'd scoop them up and take them out the door, I even had a little song, "Outside, outside, let's go potty outside."

[Jonesy's mom]

lol a song sounds cute. I will start using outside as a queue as well. She did have a few accidents this morning though. First bm and pee was fine but second one was because i took out the vacuum cleaner and left it by the front door---she headed towards the door, saw the vacuum and turned around to find a far corner .

She seems to be acting normally so far. I just hope the puffy face will subside soon. Bonus though: she's not itching/biting at her skin.

As for a new vet, there's another one near us but i don't have any specific recommended vets (we don't know a lot of people here). Neighbors across the building from us have dogs so the next time I see them i'll probably ask if they can make any suggestions. I'm considering taking her to a holistic vet though. My mom is a holistic practitioner (so of course she'd suggest finding one). There are a few in our city so we're going to check around. We're not going to complete her vaccine schedule at this time though. She seems to be far too sensitive and for the time being I know here immune system needs some recovery time. I don't know why I didn't think of waiting in the first place or at least requesting them to be administered individually and spaced out. I didn't even consider vaccines for my child until his immune system was matured at two, and even then we waited for a few years after. It wasn't until he had his own first round of shots that he started coming down with allergies so even now I regret having them done at all... sigh. What's a mom to do??

[maribd55]

My Dusty reacted to one of her vaccines as well. In addition to the swollen face, she was itching along with it. Poor thing kept rubbing her face and eyes on the carpet like they were on fire. Fortunately our vet is right around the corner from us so we were able to get her back in immediatley. They gave her a steroid shot and benedryl and she was much better within minutes and all better by morning.

The vet knew exactly which part of the vaccine caused it and she no longer gets that any more.

Jonesy should be fine. Make sure the new vet knows about this, tho.

[Jonesy's mom]

@ maribd55 - how long did it take for the swelling to go down?

[Oliver & Henry's Mum]

Wow that Vet sounds horrible! I can understand waiting if an emergency arises, as I would hope my dog would take precedence if severely injured over a dog who is there for a regular check up. Having said that, it doesn't sound like that was the case.

Because your puppy already has hot spots or itchy spots on her belly, that should have been a sign to the Vet that this dog probably has allergies. As puppies, that is usually the first place where they make an appearance! I am appalled by the lack of care and service you received from that Vet.

Personally, I think it is imperative to vaccinate your dog as well as your children. However, not all dogs need all vaccines, and you are right to expect them not to be all in one shot. Henry and Oliver just had theirs, and required three separate injections. The good news is that the Rabies now lasts for 3 years, whereas it used to an annual, live vaccine. I also only vaccinate for Bortadella if there is a possibility they will be in an indoor area where other dogs may have been, such as the Groomers or a Kennel. Rabies is a must around here.

My sister and one of my sisters-in-law have learned the hard way about vaccinating their children. Both of them were against it until they realized their children could not attend any school without proper immunization. My sister also just went through a round of Chicken Pox, with both of her boys, and subjected an entire aircraft of people to this disease by not having her children vaccinated! My son Elliot has a severe skin condition known as Congential Ichthyosis. Had he contracted Chicken Pox prior to the vaccine becoming available, he would have ended up in the Hospital.

I don't care what people choose to do with their dogs or children, but if they choose to not have proper immunization, then they need to stay away from the general public.

I hope you find a Vet who takes the time to talk to you and learn your concerns. I am quite sure that they will work with you to give your puppy what it needs, and not just give a blanket 7-in-one vaccine, or whatever. By starting the vaccines at the earliest possible age, it enables the puppy (or child) to fight off the disease more slowly, and therefore reduces the chances of an adverse reaction. Waiting makes them quite ill as they have not had an opportunity to slowly build an immunity to these diseases.

It sounds as if everything is going well. The dreaded vacuum at the door was a lesson learned. I think it's terrific news that Jonesy is already heading to the appropriate door. She is telling you what she needs. That is the start of something beautiful.

RJM, of course you have a song to teach your dogs to go "out". That is so cute!