Puppy has heart murmur, anyone else gone through this?

[TKQwerty]

I'm adopting a Keeshond puppy, and as excited as I am I get the news today that she has a 3-4 heart murmur. I apparently need to get her an ultra sound, and if it's bad, surgery. I truly want this dog, but I don't know if I can afford it.
I was wondering, has anyone else here gone through this? I tried to find the average cost online bust there wasn't anything consistent. And if you have had a dog go through this, how did they end up, healthy or needing medication?
Thank you,
Torrie

[Phyrie]

If you are adopting from a reputable breeder, your contract will ensure that the price of any congenital problems are covered by the breeder. Mind you, that's up the to price of the dog, I think. If your breeder is breeding dogs that have such severe murmurs so young, I would seriously reconsider purchasing this dog. This is NOT good breeding. Do some more research, talk to your vet, and ask tons of questions.

Good luck and let us know how you make out...

Phyrie

[Lily'smom]

That is severe for a puppy that young. When you say surgery, not sure what you are referring to. My cardiologists has said that she rarely if ever performs surgery, and would never perform surgery even on her own dogs. She said that we have just not come that far yet in treating MVD in dogs with surgery, and aside from that, the cost would be astronomical. My dog is being managed with medications, and is at a grade B1, but he is 6 years old. I would not take on this puppy unless you just want to give it a good life until the usually sad outcome and can afford the enormous expense of caring for a dog with heart disease. It is one thing to find out a dog you already have and love dearly, has heart disease, but to take on a puppy that already has an advanced case of MVD, will be heart breaking, and the expense huge. My dog has to have an echo-cardiogram every 8 months to see if his MVD has progressed, and his medication is around $70 per month which is not covered by his pet insurance. An echo-cardiogram costs about $375, and is covered, but once the pet insurance has paid out $3,000, it will no longer be covered. You would not even be able to have pet insurance to defray some of the cost for this puppy, becasue it would be a pre-existing condition.

As far as the outcome, MVD is a progressive disease. Some breeds progress faster than others, but the inevitable outcome in the majority of cases is heart failure and death. It is possible that a dog can live his entire life with MVD and actually die of something else before the MVD would cause death. It really depends on how fast the disease progresses and every dog is different. In the breed I own (Cavalier King Charles Spaniel) it can progress very rapidly. I am not familiar with your breed, so I can't speak to how fast it progresses. It is best to have a cardiologist examine the dog, and perform an echo-cardiogram. There have been many cases of vets diagnosing MVD in young puppies, when in fact they have no MVD at all. Only a cardiologist is equipped to diagnose the grade of MVD, and if the dog has it at all. It can not be diagnosed adequately by a stethoscope examination by a general practitioner vet.

I am amazed that a "reputable" breeder would even allow this puppy to be adopted, if you are in fact getting this puppy from a breeder. If this is the case, you should not be the one obtaining and paying for any heart testing, the breeder should. If you are adopting the puppy from a shelter, or rescue, and they will not pay for the testing, then it would be your decision. Some rescue organizations, and most breed specific rescues will pay for medical expenses before a dog is ever put up for adoption. If you are getting the puppy from rescue or a shelter, ask them if they will cover the cost of the testing, and pending the outcome, you can make an informed decision as to whether you want to adopt the puppy.

[Phyrie]

Lily'sMom, as the owner of another CKCS, I am only too familiar with MVD. My breeder's lines are surprisingly long lived and disease free, but I knew when I chose this breed that my dog would most likely die of heart disease, rather than anything else. What convinced me to decide on Cavaliers, after all the wonderful stuff, was the fact that Kiba's grandfather was 13 at the time of Kiba's birth, and still hale and healthy, albeit with a murmur. I know that Kiba will most likely develop a murmur at some point, and my vet and I are vigilant about checking him more frequently than you would a different breed of dog. That said, if Kiba had presented with a stage 4 murmur as a puppy, I certainly would never have bought him. And you're right, no reputable breeder should be selling such a dog.

Phyrie

[TKQwerty]

It seems she has PDA (Patent ductus arteriosus). And out of the 7 litters he has raised before this, according to his Vet and him, this has never happened to any of the previous puppies.
He offered me my money back, adopting one of her brothers, or still adopting her at half price since that's what I paid upfront.
I've read up on it, and it seems treatable. I think I will adopt her still. I wouldn't want her to be put down, rather give her the best time she'll have if I can't get it fixed.
Thank you all so much for your help! and please continue to share all the info you can!

[Phyrie]

Hmmm, I've looked it up too, and it IS very treatable, but it seems the treatment MUST involve surgery! Here's part of an article I found at http://www.petplace.com/dogs/patent-duc ... page1.aspx :

"Section: Overview

The ductus arteriosus is a blood vessel that connects the two main arteries of the body - the aorta and the pulmonary artery. This blood vessel is normal in the fetus, but shortly after birth, it should close. When the ductus arteriosus remains open or patent after birth, this abnormal communication between the aorta and pulmonary artery passes extra volumes of blood into the lungs.

Patent ductus arteriosis (PDA) is a birth defect representing the second most common congenital heart defect of dogs. Approximately seven out of 1000 live birth puppies are affected.

Generally, there are no serious symptoms of PDA unless congestive heart failure has caused fluid buildup in the lungs. The condition is typically identified in puppies during a routine veterinary visit for vaccinations. Continual blood flow through the PDA into the lungs produces a continuous (machinery) heart murmur.



Even when the veterinarian identifies a PDA, most people believe their dog is normal. In some cases, the dog can be smaller than littermates or play less vigorously. However, the situation can be very misleading as symptoms usually occur within a year of diagnosis. If untreated, about 60 percent of affected dogs die within a year of diagnosis.

When caught early, and following treatment with successful closure of the PDA, most dogs live a normal life. Unless there are complications from other heart defects or heart failure has already developed, there is rarely any future need for medication. While special circumstances can influence the prognosis, most cases are straightforward.

PDA is genetically determined in almost every case, and this fact impacts the value of purebred dogs used for breeding. PDA is common in the miniature poodle, collie, Maltese, Shetland sheepdog, German shepherd dog, cocker spaniel, Pomeranian, and Labrador retriever. Female dogs are predisposed.

What to Watch For


Breathing difficulties

Coughing

Exercise intolerance

Lethargy

Diagnosis

Various diagnostic tests are needed to recognize PDA, and exclude other diseases. Some of the necessary tests may include:


Complete medical history and physical examination including auscultation (stethoscope examination) of the heart and lungs. The heart murmur of PDA is characteristic and most experienced veterinarians learn to make the diagnosis simply by listening. Since other birth defects can also cause heart murmurs, a veterinary cardiologist may be consulted if the diagnosis is in doubt.


A chest X-ray (radiograph) can help determine the severity of the problem.


An electrocardiogram (EKG) can assist with the diagnosis.


An echocardiogram with Doppler (cardiac ultrasound) is the definitive diagnostic test. This may require referral.


Routine blood tests may be performed prior to any anesthesia.

Treatment


The conventional treatment is an operation done shortly after diagnosis. The PDA is closed with surgical suture.


Aspirin, indomethacin and other prostaglandin inhibitors do NOT work in dogs and should not be given to close the ductus - these are dangerous drugs in young pets.


Surgery should not be delayed by waiting for symptoms to develop.


Medical treatment may be necessary before surgery if symptoms (coughing, difficult breathing) are present.


In some referral centers, the PDA may be closed using special catheterization techniques.

Home Care and Prevention

Before any surgery, provide only the exercise your dog can tolerate. Do not allow your dog to become short of breath with activity.

Follow up with your veterinarian after surgery or surgical closure. In most cases, only a suture removal is needed and further follow-up is unnecessary.

There is no way to prevent PDA but dogs diagnosed should not be bred, even if the defect has been corrected."

I wish you the best of luck. Perhaps you should ask your vet what this procedure will cost, to help you make this decision.
Phyrie

[TKQwerty]

Thank you for that article, I I will ask my vet.
Basically what it'll have to come down to is if I can afford to help her,I'll keep her. If not, I'll have to return her and hope he can find someone who can afford the cost.
Thank you SO much for all you help!

[Phyrie]

That's the best decision of all. If we can't afford to provide our dogs with care, we can't afford the dog. There is nothing wrong with that, it's just the way it is. I hope it's a simple procedure and you soon have a happy, healthy puppy to take home.

Phyrie

[Oliver & Henry's Mum]

I am hoping for the best outcome for your Keeshond. Kudos to you for doing the research, and thanks to Phyrie and Lily'sMom for providing such wonderful information.

I am sure this thread will be very useful for many people in the future.

Do keep us posted as we are all learning together

[iluvcats&dogs]

There is also more information in another thread here, almost the same title. I hope there is valuable information there as well as some that others have already put in!
Sadly, I don't know much about puppy's health, I'm only 14, but I am learning new stuff every day!
I had a heart murmur as a baby, it close up naturally, but I don't know how much of a help that will be. My cat also had a heart murmur but it didn't affect her and we didn't give her surgery or meds. Again, I don't know how much help that will be since it's 2 different animals, but you never know... just giving as much info as possible.

I hope you get the puppy! Good luck!

K

[TKQwerty]

Thank you all so much for all the information and support!
I will be picking her up on the 16th to have her checked out by my vet, hoping all goes well, I let you all know how it goes!

[Lily'smom]

Phyrie.....I have two Cavs, and like you, I knew the potential medical problems that come with the breed. Lily, my 3 year old, came from a breeder, and both of her parents, were heart clear at 5. Unfortunately, she was just diagnosed with Syringomyelia which I am sure you are familiar with as a Cav owner. She was MRI'd at Auburn University Vet School here in Alabama, and it was also found that she has PSOM. Her SM is currently mild with moderate symptoms, and she is on two medications for the rest of her life, unless it progresses, and she will need surgery. The neurologist at Auburn said she is borderline for surgery at this time, so we opted to treat with medication for now.

My little guy with the MVD, is a puppy mill rescue who I was fostering, and could not give up. I adopted him at almost 4, and he was heart clear at that time. So now, two years later, he has been diagnosed. He is doing well on the medication, but my cardiologist has indicated that Cavs do not respond as well to the medication as some breeds, and they do progress more rapidly. I am committed to giving both of these babies the best possible life, and they are both loved more than words can say. They are the two sweetest dogs I have ever owned, just little love sponges, but being a Cav Mom, you know exactly what I'm talking about

Because I was familiar with the health problems in the breed, I did get pet insurance on both dogs, which has been a huge help, but it does not pay for the medication, which for both dogs, is running about $120.00 per month.
Still, with all of the health problems, I could not imagine life without a Cavalier.

Thanks for posting the information. I was not familiar with that condition. It is apparently different than the MVD that our breed has, as surgery can repair the problem.

Sharon

[Phyrie]

Oh, yes, Lily'sMom, the insurance is invaluable. My Kiba came with six weeks free insurance from the breeder, and thankfully we decided to keep it up. It's been a godsend. It takes away any worry you might have about providing the best care you can. Although Kiba has not suffered any of the usual Cav problems yet, (knock wood), he has had his share of illnesses and injuries. His last series of X-rays came to almost $650!! Because we use the insurance often, we are down to 50% coverage, but it's still better than having to pay full price!

Phyrie

[Oliver & Henry's Mum]

Sharon, your Cavaliers are lovely, and like you, I know all too well about SM. Oliver has an "and/or" diagnosis for SM, and a positive diagnosis for Chiari Malformation. Despite all that we have been through with Oliver, we acquired Henry in late June of this year. So far, so good, but I admit that every time he scratches or goes for his hind end in a certain way, I am watching him like a hawk.

It is such a shame that these sweet, sweet love sponges have these issues, as well as the MVD. I appreciate you for taking the time to share your information. Many people who may never log on will have an opportunity to read and learn from you, and Phyrie of course.

[Lily'smom]

Sharon, your Cavaliers are lovely, and like you, I know all too well about SM. Oliver has an "and/or" diagnosis for SM, and a positive diagnosis for Chiari Malformation. Despite all that we have been through with Oliver, we acquired Henry in late June of this year. So far, so good, but I admit that every time he scratches or goes for his hind end in a certain way, I am watching him like a hawk.

It is such a shame that these sweet, sweet love sponges have these issues, as well as the MVD. I appreciate you for taking the time to share your information. Many people who may never log on will have an opportunity to read and learn from you, and Phyrie of course.

Thank you...they are the loves of my life. Lily showed signs of SM as young as 6 months old. Then as she got older the scratching was very sporadic, so I hoped that it was just allergies. Her symptoms became worse about 6 mos ago, and were pretty much daily. I really feared the worst, and really knew in my heart she had SM, and knew it was time to get her some relief from her symptoms. Becasue she showed symptoms so young, I was certain that she was going to have a sever case, but to my pleasant surprise, at this time she has a mild case, but has moderate symptoms. I am praying that she will be one who never progresses further, and we can manage her on medication. She is on gabapentin 50 mg, twice per day, and prilosec 10 mg daily. She is doing so much better on the medication, but I notice around 3 in the afternoon when her morning dose of gabapentin is wearing off, she starts rubbing her face on the carpet. So she may need to be on the medication 3 times per day. She is extremely active, and otherwise healthy. She has face rubbing, and scratching around her sides and neck and ears, but has no seizures, bunny hop, or problems with her gait, so I am thankful for that. She was also diagnosed with PSOM at the time of her MRI, so that could also be the cause of the face rubbing, and ear scratching. My little rescue shows absolutely no signs of SM at 6 years old. I think becasue he is older, he may have missed the curve for SM.

I hope your Oliver never progresses any further, and all of our sweet Cavs live long pain free lives. It is the most we can hope for in the breed as it stands now. I await the day that all of these horrible diseases that are so prevalent in the breed we love so much, are one day eradicated. Your babies are adorable too, as well as Phyrie's Kiba. But really, have we ever seen a Cav who is not adorable .