Biting and Nipping

[Blackie65]

Read this entire section a second time as I get scared when my 8 week old puppy turns into "sid viscous!" biting and snarling...he doesn't respond to loud abrupt noises when he is in the mode or when I get up and ignore him...so I pick him up and hold him til his temper tantrum ends...its weird, his head is swirling...his legs are swirling and twirling...then he calms down and he is my sweet puppy again...this usually happens when he is tired...and needs rest...

[kian]

You actually answered your own question with my response!!! It's true a overtired puppy will not respond to any of those methods, he needs naptime! It's okay to put him in his crate with some snacks so he can take a nice, long nap.

[Blackie65]

Thank you! He seems to really look forward to the crate at these times!!

[cindy98989]

Ahhhhhhhhhhh a thread after my own heart LOL.

I had Charlie from 8 weeks old, nothing and I mean nothing worked to stop his biting and aggression. I tried every single training suggestion, read books, took him to obedience classes which he was basically thrown out of the second week for disrupting the entire class. There once was a thread on here all about Charlie aka Jaws. I was ready to give up on him but determined to win the battle, I kept trying.

We couldn't sit on the couch..he would jump up and attack. Couldn't sit on the floor because he would be all over us. I have both arms full of scars from his biting. My battle scars! For a good 6 months he was uncontrollable with biting. He ate the front of my hope chest, destroyed every toy he had (even kongs) and would not listen. The real kicker was he would learn tricks in a matter of hours so I knew he was smart. He had this power trip where he thought he was the boss.

After trying everything I was in the grocery store one day and saw the HOT tabasco sauce on the shelf. I bought a bottle. Before sitting on the couch, I spread this nasty stuff all over my hands and arms. I then went and sat down and sure enough here comes Jaws with is mouth wide open. Well...he got a good mouthful of tabasco sauce and went running for his water dish. That of course didn't help much to stop the burning. As God is my witness, Charlie never once bit me or my daughter again. He would play and mouth us but never with any pressure and all I had to say was do you want me to get the sauce? he would immediately lay down like a little angel. Not only did it cure the biting on us, he stopped chewing on the hope chest and all the shoes he could find. I can't tell you how many pairs of good shoes he ruined.

I know it sound mean, but it was the only thing that worked for Charlie. I will never regret using it because now Charlie is 4 years old and the best dog ever. There isn't anything I can't do to him...I cut his nails, I clean his ears, I have pulled rawhide pieces out from the back of this throat when he tries to swallow one that is too big...I've cut the fur around his butt when he gets poopy butt. LOL I clean his eyes, brush his teeth you name it and he NEVER opens his mouth. Even when we rough house and wrestle on the floor together...I can put my entire hand in his mouth and he will not bite down even the slightest bit.

He gives me a nosey nosey every morning when he wakes up (that's what we call his kisses on my nose) and will lay next to me with his head on my lap when he's tired. Charlie is now 130 pounds, I can't imagine the damage he could have done if he won the battle instead of me. I thank God everyday that I didn't give up on him..I love my little pony, he's what keeps me going and keeps me laughing with his silly antics.

If all else fails and your dog gets to be too old to have his biting considered mouthing or nipping because of teething...before you give up, try the tabasco sauce. Make sure they see the bottle after they get a mouthful of it. That will be all you'll need to show them if they try to revert back to biting. Good luck and I hope your dogs turn out as great as Charlie did.

[Oliver & Henry's Mum]

Cindy, I'm so glad you posted!!! This thread was created in YOUR honour.

The person who posted last "Blackie65" has just returned and posted again in her Intro thread about her dog, who is now 5 months old and is nipping/biting. It is becoming more aggressive. I referred her to this thread, and to you specifically. I really hope you can help her.

Actually, I didn't copy a link to this thread, which I'll go back and do now.

You are our "go to expert" on all things biting and nipping! By the way, her name is Jill, and her dog is called Ringo.

[Blackie65]

ugh, I wish it was this easy...Ringo doesnt really "bite" me, he has NEVER drawn blood or even left a scratch, its more the barking at me that makes him seem viscious...

[Oliver & Henry's Mum]

He is talking back, like a typical teen!

Ignore him, turn your back to him and/or just walk away. Give it NO attention.

[marysm]

Phyrie Posts: 4508Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:49 pm
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My Puppy won't stop biting!!! please help??

by marysm on Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:38 pm Reposted here per instruction, so sorry to have been in wrong place. Really really new here...sorry!

Hi.New here today.Read all over this site, sincerely hope I'm in the right place. I desperately need help, quick. We got a 10wk old lap/spaniel male mix 3 months ago. Smartest pup ever, have already taught him SOOO many things, and he learns in one session. Amazing. He came sick (coccidiosis), wormy,from someone who got him at 6 wks. Got him all proper shots & care, just waiting to neuter which vet won't do til after full 6 months. From about 14 wks on, the biting problem started. I've read all about mouthing, being taken too early to learn from his mom, etc, but this is more than mouthing or even nipping.
It would happen mostly at night when he'd run crazy playing with toys when we were sitting in the liv. rm, then end up at my feet & start biting. I'd put my hands down to stay "no bite" but he'd do it harder, even if I had to "yell". Sometimes I'd try to push him away, but he'd immediately thrash onto his back, turn his head sideways, whites of eyes showing, and SNARL like a dog in the street that you'd just met. He was always on a light drag leash, so I'd have to grab the leash & take him to a time-out in another room where he couldn't see me or my husband, then after a minute, then 5, then 10 (as it escalated over time), I'd bring him back. Sometimes that was it, sometimes it would be another couple of times. I should say he drew blood on both my hands many times. He'd also do this if you pointed your finger at him to say "no bite" or "no" or "stop". He seemed to really hate that, & would do the snarl/bite just for that. BUT....after a while of that we'd go out for potty, then he'd lay on my lap til bed, snuggling, kissing, sweetest dog ever.
He is a "velcro puppy", extremely attached to me and I love it. Last 3-4 weeks if one of us reaches for his collar to get something away from him or get him to move, he'd do the snarl/attack/bite for that. (He does "drop it" perfectly when playing fetch, esp. if we have treats, but if no treat, then not always). The scary part is that no matter how sweet & amazing he is all day long, he "turns" like this as if he has no connection to us at all[/b]which is scary & very sad for me actually....
I walk him almost every day & if not, then I hold a 30' line in the front yard to play fetch & run as much as he wants for 30-60 mins. we DO play "fetch" inside & out for 20-40 mins. at a time 2-3 times a day, plus training, kongs, a device that hides kibble & he has to lift doors to find it which he is so good at, plus I teach & train because he just loves to learn. He naps, sits & waits til I say "ok" for his food bowl, he's fantastic. But this snarling, and now with the collar. We have visiting grandchildren from 13 to infant - he's so excited & happy to see them that he jumps incessantly, straining with all his might against me holding his leash to get to them, so much so that he has to be crated when the littlest ones are here and held tight to me with the bigger ones. When someone comes to the door or we take him to the pet store he pulls & strains til he chokes himself, yet when I walk him on the sidewalks here he walks almost perfectly....until he sees someone. He just wants to get to them to jump and say "hi" & be friendly, but he is amazingly strong & I worry for his neck (even the Halti harness doesn't stop it). I'm not AS worried about the jumping because I know over time that should get better (he sits perfectly every other time, but NOT when the family comes to the door, not even if I have treats.)
The real problem is the scary snarling/biting. Don't know if this is a little above-normal & will stop, or if because of the grandchildren (we babysit a LOT) it's an immediate danger. Again--he can't be out of the crate with the 7,3,& baby and they want so much to interact with him. The one time he was out, the 3-yr old walked by, my head was turned for a moment, he jumped up on her & she got a face & neck scratch (superficial, from his feet, but..still...My husband has been saying "we can't keep him, he's going to hurt one of the kids", --the incidents calmed down a bit the last 3 weeks because I'd say "no bite-go get a toy", and he would, & it wouldn't go to the biting. But yesterday he had for the 1st time a beefhide bone, he was so excited, took it to the liv.rm rug to chew. I went to him once, sat down, moved it and he was fine. I came back 10 minutes later to take it, and he FLEW upright with the loudest growl and forward motion as if to bite (but did NOT) - first to me, then immediately to my husband when he ran over. My husband was totally frightened and immediately said that's it, he goes to 'the pound' or wherever, but he's OUT of here before he takes the face off one of the kids. I was upset then also but was able to grab his collar (leash was off this time), and put him in his crate where he stayed for a long time while my husband told me to start calling & getting him "gone". I did because I also was scared; of course no one will take a biting 6 mo. old puppy - except one place who would rehome him. I LOVE this puppy with all my heart, I understand my husb. saying we can't keep a dog we're afraid of, but then I started thinking....of COURSE a puppy would guard the best toy(bone) he ever had & I should have traded a treat for it instead of just taking it, but also our thought is that you should be able to take anything...and I can take his food when he eats.
So...sorry about all this. But...this was yesterday & my husband wants to get rid of him NOW. I'm 2nd-guessing everything, not sure what to do. Do I want a dog that has to be crated for the next 10 years when the kids are here? No. But this was to be my last pet, my companion, the life in our home when the kids are not here and I feel like it would kill me to give him up. My "shadow" kisses me, lays in my lap, learns whatever I teach, runs to greet my husb. when he gets up in the morning, knows words & phrases beyond training...he was such a promise. Have I done everything wrong.....or is he an untrustworthy, possibly dangerous threat that needs to go?

[Oliver & Henry's Mum]

Yes, this is the RIGHT thread, and please don't apologize!!!!

Since the hour is late for me, relatively, I read your post rather quickly. There were several things that jumped out at me. First of all, small children should never, ever be left to "play" with a puppy unattended. It is a recipe for disaster. Whether intentionally or not, toddlers and even 3 year olds can be too rough with puppies, as can even a 7 year old. I would not blame this on the pup. The children need to be taught to respect the pup's space and to STAY AWAY! All interaction between the puppy and the children should be under the strictest supervision. Remember, this is but a short time in ALL of their lives! This is not forever, just for now.

You also mentioned that you "grab" the collar, or physically remove the puppy when he becomes nippy. You are giving him attention for this behaviour, good, bad or indifferent, he is effecting a response. Before I go too far, I really hope you read through this entire thread as long as it is, as every stage of development is touched upon and discussed herein. You may find several answers already available to you, which is why I directed you to here.

I noticed as well that the puppy becomes most nippy in the evenings, which is very common. Not unlike small children, he is overly tired, and overly stimulated. How else would expect a pup to demonstrate that he's had enough for the day if not this way? You also wisely pointed out that you attempted to remove his favourite treat, after 10 minutes in the evening, I believe. That is NOT the time for training with a high value treat.

As with our children, our pups have their own "witching hour" as well. They are cranky and worn out at the end of the day. Pointing your finger in your very smart puppy's face is simply inviting a nip. There are many other things to try first. One of which that you have not mentioned, is simply to stand up, cross your arms and turn your back on the puppy thereby giving him NO attention when he starts to nip.

Another tip, which you've mentioned that you do from time to time, is to give him something on which he can chew, and praise him. An ice cube, or a frozen, twisted face cloth works wonders for those sore gums. He is teething after all. You did say he was VERY SMART so that means he can learn. It is simply a matter of you finding the best way to teach him.

Please don't give up on this puppy! Your husband needs to learn some patience, dare I say. Try to establish a routine that will eliminate the possibility of this happening. Since you know when your pup is most "cranky" and "nippy", perhaps try putting him in his crate, with a proper, safe chew item, like an ice cube when you wish him to calm for the evening.

Remember to praise, praise, praise the desired behaviour.

I've only touched on a very few basic things. Please take the time to read this thread, and by all means ask follow up questions. This is not the end...it is the beginning. Now is the time to really focus on this, and remember that some of the "drive" will most likely be tempered by having him neutered when that is age appropriate.

Again, I'm just giving random thoughts here as I read your post. When you push him away, point your finger in his face or grab at his leash/collar, you are engaging him. You must stop that and find another way.

Lastly, none of this is the pup's fault. He needs proper guidance and direction and you already sound like someone who is willing to do what it takes to make that happen.

Good luck....and do keep us posted. Enjoy the read!

[marysm]

Thank you very much for your reply. I appreciate every word. Just to clarify, not to dispute in any way...I never did leave the children alone with him...that incident happened when she was just passing by him and he jumped before I could grab him. He's been on a lightweight drag-leash and I always took him by the leash to time-outs. Just recently, after 3 months, (he's 23 weeks now) I occasionally took the leash off so getting him by the collar to take a paper out of his mouth or to remove him from a closet only happened a couple of times. Reading dog books and forums I thought it was correct to remove him for time-outs. When I was able to get away from his biting I DID go into a closet, close the door & wait a few seconds, which he understood. But sometimes the biting at night was impossible to get away from without taking HIM off me. Those times were when he drew blood, as I reached down, never at any other time. And I do know a lot of it is normal for pups....it was just the scary sideways growling/biting with whites of eyes showing that we thought was over the top and was starting to make us concerned he might have some hidden problem. If THAT kind of "attacking", which it is, is normal then I do plead ignorance....one of the reasons I was asking for feedback here. I've read just about every sentence on this site, but I have not found anyone saying that it was a scary, ferocious, "wild-dog" type of attack, which is why we thought we had a different problem here. The treat incident, which was a new chewbone & he was definitely excited about it, happened at 10 a.m., I would never give him something like that at night - but my post was over-long & I understand if that wasn't clear. Even though I've had many many dogs over my lifetime I honestly did not know that pointing a finger to say no was wrong...can't believe how stupid that makes a 59 yr old woman sound--and feel! My husband doesn't have patience....that severe growling over the bone was too much for him & he said "ONCE like that is enough". (Now he's "done" with the dog, won't even look at him when he comes up to him.) I tried to say that as scary as that was, he did NOT bite either one of us after all, but that's when he started talking about how even 5 years from now, if that was "in him", that he could attack one of the children and that we could never, ever trust him from now on, & that he would have to be crated whenever the kids came FOREVER because he (my husb.) would not take the chance of an "accident", ever. & he said....they come here from, like, noon to 9 at night almost every Sat & Sun, so "what kind of life is that for a dog", to be in a crate away from everybody for 9 hours 2 or 3 days a week, for the rest of his life. So that's why I came here. I also read that neutering keeps males from running, but doesn't change behavior. I think maybe I've just "read" too much, and should just rely on my love for this little boy instead....but the grandkids....does anyone ever really know what their dog is capable of, when in one split second something could go wrong. Last week there was happiness in this house...since the bone incident there is a huge black cloud over everything.....

[Shorkie*Gypsy]

Thank you for this!
My babies have bitten so many people ( luckily no one felt the need to report us), that my bf recently told me that they need to be trained to stop biting and harassing strangers or they will need to go. =(
ugh! Devastated by the thought!

[oldie moldy]

Reading through these five pages I'm reminded of what the chroniclers wrote of an early king: "....He was a well favored man and popular everywhere. He did no justice and allowed much mischief during his reign." I fear this description might well be applied to many here.
This is a bad time to be a beginning trainer; we are at the far swing of the pendulum of what is acceptable training technique. When I was a boy the standards were grim to brutally harsh. Some of the professional trainers could easily be taken for guards from the concentration camps. Now we are at the polar opposite. I think our goal ought to be somewhere nearer the "golden mean". Rather than getting into fruitless arguments over religiously held positions; I suggest we look at the natural world.
How do dogs and wolves control and discipline junior members of the social group? In general terms: the adults use very dramatic displays of aggression/dominance without seriously hurting the pup. No wolf pack can afford to allow some pup to disrupt the order and functioning of the pack, so some adult deals with him. But at the end of the lesson the pup picks himself up and walks away a wiser member of the pack.
As an aside, which may help you grasp this try re-reading Captains Courageous by Kipling. It really tickles me; it the same old song all over again!
Now, so much blab without some concrete advice is pretty much useless but (as I've recently become aware) I don't know you, I don't know your dog and quite honestly I'm not sure that you are mature enough to apply careful measured correction to the erring pup without it becoming "payback time".
So....some guidelines:
Never, never, never try to train or correct your dog while angry. Put the pup in the kennel and stick you head under the cold water tap. There isn't a trainer on earth who hasn't gotten angry at his dog; it's what you don't do while angry that's so important.
I'd look around where ever you live and talk to a trainer who seems to have his dogs well trained and socialized, find out how he established benign dominance over his dogs. If the concept seems repugnant to him I'd find another trainer. Go to the library and read the dog training books, see what the author recommends.
Whatever you do, the pup ought to recognize it as correction and not an escalation to rough play.
Now little pups are little babies and much tolerance should be extended, to get away from the teeth I will often just pop them in the kennel. To us the kennel might look like jail but to dogs it's his den.
I believe I've used up my quota of electrons this morning.
Best Wishes, Rob

p.s. As soon as my computer smart daughter comes home for a visit
I'll put something up on that "who that who the heck are you" page.

[oldie moldy]

Hi Marysm, I've read your two posts and I agree you've got problems with you pup/young dog. Now, the warning label: I'm an old guy and pretty much used up, I've got more opinions than functioning brain cells.

BUT here's how I read your situation: Your dog doesn't go into the aggressive mode when things are going his way, throwing the ball, getting his tummy rubbed, feeding him and so on. When he switches is when you are "crossing him" in some way. He's new to life and would really like it all to go his way and he's trying to take steps to enforce that goal. I'll bet you've noted an more or less steady increase in the severity of his correction to you. He's working with you but you're a little slow. Yes, he has bitten you but I didn't hear anything about stitches or emergency rooms so that shows that he is limiting the degree of correction, using the only tools he has, his teeth.

By and large most humans would find the "order of dominance" in your house unacceptable, but the decision is up to you.
I read of your love for your dog and can really relate to that, but, I'll tell you a little secret, a well behaved dog is even more loveable.

Now, I can't tell you what to do in detail, it would be unwise because I'm not there to see. But in broad strokes the dog needs to be left with a new world view that when he threatens or bites a human the roof falls in on him! The degree of force ought to produce a frightened dog who is overtly submissive and subdued. Every time, consistently. Do not rush to comfort the dog after this correction. I'm not talking about anything that will leave real damage to the dog, only to his superiority complex.

You've been told not to point at your dog. My dear, you can point, you can wiggle your ears, you can stick out your tongue, you can stand on your head, shoot you can do just about anything and it is NOT permission for the dog to bite.
When he bites or threatens, land on him. Every time, consistently.

When he's being good and sweet and obedient then show much love and approval and acceptance. It's simple really, one set of behaviors lands him in a very disagreeable situation and another set produces much comfort and pleasure.
Until he learns that humans are "kings X" and he's never allowed to show aggression toward them I'd for sure keep him in the crate or kennel while children are around the house. Something can happen so quick and then you're left with a real problem.

Only you know what you've tried so far and how well it has or hasn't worked. If you feel unable or are unwilling to come to grips with the problem then I suggest you get professional help from a trainer who can. As I see it, the aggression will only get worse, and there's no reason to go down that road. But please note, even after a trainer has your dog lined out it will be really easy for you and the dog to slip back into your old mode of interacting and thus breaking down the training you paid the big bucks for. For a real solution I'd expect you to be being educated right along with the dog; and one guess who is going to be the slow one to learn!
Best Wishes, Rob

p.s. Thank you, Richard!!

[Nileska]

Hey Oldie Moldy,.I like some of the stuf you write.I too am "old school"when it comes to aggressive dogs who do not understand who is in charge...INSTANT Devine retribution is automatic in MY kennel when needed.Have in the past had up to 20 Siberian Huskies (including a litter of 6 puppies) at any one time.Believe me,nothing can be more uppity than a Siberian

I enjoy your posts but a bit of unsolicited advice,they would be a lot easier to read if you would break your missives up into paragraphs..

.Since I too was born before fire was invented I also must rely on the expertise of my son for tech support.

Richard