Australian Shepherds

[agcranfill]

I read your response. I did a lot of research before choosing a mini and I found the same information! Miniatures existed before Australian Shepherds had a breed standard or were accepted by the AKC. They have the equal likelihood of succumbing to the same diseases. They look identical to the larger ones. This side of the argument makes the most sense to me.

But I don't understand the hostility. If you register a dog as a miniature it loses its "breedhood" from the AKC? Genetics are genetics. It seems so political and not at all based on the facts. How can miniature schnauzers and toy poodles be allowed but not Miniature Australian Shepherds?

I really want to know if there is any validity to their argument. I have yet to find an Australian Shepherd breeder who condones the smaller variation. Forums are filled with angry posters saying that Minis are mutts and unhealthy runts. I know I have seen a few toys that look like they could have some Pomeranian in them, but there are bad breeders of any breed.

I want to defend my mini, but in order to do that, I want to be informed and accurate. No holes in my story! So I really ask, is there any truth to the haters?

[kian]

Good questions! Check out this link form the MASCUA now known as the NAMASCUA, they are pushing for AKC recognition.
I take no issue with the name change, it is a compromise, but you might as well put the Australian Shepherd characteristics to the Mini Aussie regardless of the name. http://www.namascusa.com/akc_updates.htm

Currently this one and the CKC are the only ones that recognizes the minis, but the debate is still on and hopefully with AKC approval this will end the debate. I'm sure you will still find some hostility from die hard breeders.

Genetics are genetics. It seems so political and not at all based on the facts. How can miniature schnauzers and toy poodles be allowed but not Miniature Australian Shepherds?

Bingo!! My argument as well, these are NOT designer dogs, but bred down for size without compromising any characteristics. Having said that, I am not a fan of the toys, that is too extreme and they do come with health issues particularly in the eyes.

The link has wonderful information to research, honestly, I wouldn't argue with those idiots on other forums. If they do show up here again, you can bet I will be ready to battle!!

[4CrazyCanines]

The problem that lies with many "mini" and "toy" Aussies is that they are bred to be house-pets, meaning they are purposefully bred to have reduced/lessened drive, energy, and herding instinct/behaviors. Aussies are NOT for the average person - they need a job otherwise they will be miserable and in turn will make you miserable. The average person does not have the time, experience, and knowledge required to own a highly intelligent herding dog whose intended purpose is to work all day, every day. The "mini" and "toy" Aussie would be more suitable for the average person because the characteristics that make an Aussie unsuitable for the average Joe have been purposefully bred out and reduced. With that being said, to breeders and proponents of the working Australian Shepherd, the "mini" and "toy" versions of an Australian Shepherd go against everything that they believe the breed is and should remain.

"The United States Australian Shepherd Association Statement concerning the Miniature Australian Shepherd, and the Toy Australian Shepherd.

Recently there has been a rise in the movement to breed miniature and toy versions of the Australian Shepherd.

The Miniature Australian Shepherd and the Toy Australian Shepherd are not recognized or considered varieties of the Australian Shepherd by this organization, the United States Australian Shepherd Association, Inc. (USASA), or by the American Kennel Club (AKC). Since these dogs are not AKC registered, they cannot be verified by USASA as purebred, and therefore are not considered Australian Shepherds by this organization.

The USASA does not support the purposeful breeding of Miniature Australian Shepherds and Toy Australian Shepherds, and expects all members who have breeding programs to breed to the USASA/AKC recognized standard of excellence. The USASA further expects all members to be ever vigilant in the preservation and protection of the Australian Shepherd." (http://www.australianshepherds.org/miniaussie.html)

There are no accepted or officially recognized (AKC, ASCA, USASA) size varieties of Australian Shepherds (meaning "standard", "mini", or "toy"). Some miniature Australian Shepherds, such as Kian's Allie I believe, are simply Aussies on the smaller side of the breed standard and thus obviously have all of the Aussie characteristics and intended traits - they are Aussies through-and-through. These "minis", I believe (and someone please correct me if I am wrong), are produced by breeding the smaller Aussies obtained in each litter to other smaller purebred Aussies. On the other hand, some minis/toys are mixed with other breeds in order to attain the small/toy statures. I've met a "toy Aussie" that was clearly a red merle Papillon mix and several "mini Aussies" that were Sheltie and Pomeranian mixes. And of course as mentioned above, many "minis" and "toys" are purposefully bred to reduce the traits that make an Aussie an Aussie in order to make them more suitable house pets. Because of all of this discrepancy when it comes to the "mini" and "toy" versions, registries and breeders and proponents of the original, working Australian Shepherd have been and will likely continue to be opposed to them.

[agcranfill]

Kian-
Yes I heard about the AKC and the North American Shepherd compromise. I like it and I don’t. Mostly because I think it weakens the gene pool by preventing the breeding of Aussies to Minis. Also, I think it cheapens the work of responsible breeders who spent years carefully developing a smaller Aussie without sacrificing health, temperament or conformation.

But I would ultimately be fine with it. It’s probably the best the little munchkins are going to get.

Yeah, I don’t really want to argue about it. I am open to hearing rational opinion based in facts. I’d actually look forward to it. That’s part of my problem. I feel that with so many people against the Mini, that there would be stronger cases against it. Prior to my posting I just heard lies and hypocrisy. But maybe I give people to much credit when this surprises me. I do not know.

[agcranfill]

Accelerated Aussies-
I understand the argument against the lessening of the herding drive. But I think you are being narrow minded about it. Do you think that show Aussies are bred to be aloof towards strangers? Or that they value herding instinct as high as a straight backline when making a breeding match? Of course not. And the same variations exist in Mini breeders. If the Australian Shepherd standard says that “Quality is not to be sacrificed in favor of size.” Does that not show that a smaller dog can be an affective herder? Some Minis are bred for work, and some are bred more for families. But even if you don’t agree with that statement, you have to recognize some hypocrisy in condemning Minis while accepting show line Aussies.

But for the sake of argument, lets just say that Minis are bred to be pets. What is so wrong with that? I’d bet $40 dollars that there are more people with Australian Shepherds that don’t herd than do. And when that goes, why do you need a dog that nips and is stranger passive? What is wrong with a dog with all of the intelligence, agility, beauty and love minus the drive to move livestock? People are told to socialize Aussies young to make them friendly with strangers and to scold them from nipping to keep them from herding people. Doesn’t sound like anybody wants those behaviors besides those using their dog for its original purpose.

So basically I am saying, that even if you were right about the repurposing of the Aussie for a wider audience, I don’t think that’s always a bad thing. Dogs used to be our workers: hunting, guarding, ratting, herding. But now they are our pets. I think as long as working lines stay strong for those who prefer them, there should be no problem with having dogs that prefer Frisbee and belly rubs. (Maybe I am biased, I do have a Golden Retriever that hates retrieving, haha)

I don’t know if I was hostile or not. I may have come off a bit heated. I think it was a bit of built up frustration from reading message boards. I really do respect the heritage and incredible herding instinct of the Australian Shepherd. I also respect your opinion. You didn’t try to condescend or declare that Minis are mutts. My point was really to offer an alternative of perspective.

Ps- I agree that toys are weird. I don’t trust their pedigree. Their faces are too small and their eyes too big.

[Deerie me]

.....and they have pointy noses.

[agcranfill]

haha they sure do!

[4CrazyCanines]

Accelerated Aussies-
I understand the argument against the lessening of the herding drive. But I think you are being narrow minded about it. Do you think that show Aussies are bred to be aloof towards strangers? Or that they value herding instinct as high as a straight backline when making a breeding match? Of course not. And the same variations exist in Mini breeders. If the Australian Shepherd standard says that “Quality is not to be sacrificed in favor of size.” Does that not show that a smaller dog can be an affective herder? Some Minis are bred for work, and some are bred more for families. But even if you don’t agree with that statement, you have to recognize some hypocrisy in condemning Minis while accepting show line Aussies.

But for the sake of argument, lets just say that Minis are bred to be pets. What is so wrong with that? I’d bet $40 dollars that there are more people with Australian Shepherds that don’t herd than do. And when that goes, why do you need a dog that nips and is stranger passive? What is wrong with a dog with all of the intelligence, agility, beauty and love minus the drive to move livestock? People are told to socialize Aussies young to make them friendly with strangers and to scold them from nipping to keep them from herding people. Doesn’t sound like anybody wants those behaviors besides those using their dog for its original purpose.

So basically I am saying, that even if you were right about the repurposing of the Aussie for a wider audience, I don’t think that’s always a bad thing. Dogs used to be our workers: hunting, guarding, ratting, herding. But now they are our pets. I think as long as working lines stay strong for those who prefer them, there should be no problem with having dogs that prefer Frisbee and belly rubs. (Maybe I am biased, I do have a Golden Retriever that hates retrieving, haha)

I don’t know if I was hostile or not. I may have come off a bit heated. I think it was a bit of built up frustration from reading message boards. I really do respect the heritage and incredible herding instinct of the Australian Shepherd. I also respect your opinion. You didn’t try to condescend or declare that Minis are mutts. My point was really to offer an alternative of perspective.

Ps- I agree that toys are weird. I don’t trust their pedigree. Their faces are too small and their eyes too big.

I only have time to write a few quick things.
1) I am far from narrow-minded. I think you're looking for support to back up your decision to get a "mini" Aussie while at the same time asking "is there any truth to the haters"? As with any controversy, there is going to be some truth to either side and I gave some to you to shed light on why some are opposed to "minis" and "toys". Did I say that I agree with it or that I share the same opinion? No. I just tried to give you some answers that you were looking for.
2) I do NOT condemn "minis" nor did I ever say that I did.
3) I do not necessarily accept/agree with conformation-lines in Aussies ... nor do I condemn them. I never said either. Go back a bit in this thread ... you'll see my opinion of working lines versus conformation lines. I've touched on this topic several times in various threads as well.
4) For argument's sake - if you want a dog with unique aesthetics (particularly coat colors/patterns) but has none of the behaviors that breeders and registries (meaning ASCA and USASA ... AKC has changed their breed description to match the conformation lines) worked so hard to preserve and refine, thus making the Australian Shepherd one of the best herding dogs in America today, why not get a merle Pomeranian, a parti-colored Poodle, etc? Or better yet, why not save a life and rescue one of the millions of dogs in our country's shelters? Any of those dogs would love "Frisbee and belly rubs" and are typically not aloof to strangers and will not typically nip heels/pant legs/etc.

[kian]

I will say that Accelerated Aussies is not closed minded at all, we have had some great discussions. Both of Allies parents are Minis and she certainly has the herding instinct. Even mix breeds like AA's Diesel has the herding instinct and she has been able to work him. The herding instinct is there or it's not, not all Aussies (regular size or not) have the instinct. I have a friend that bought another Border Collie from the same lines as his previous one he retired. I learned after I moved here, he was looking for home for this BC, it seems he has no herding instincts. To me that point is moot, either they have or they don't.

The Pom thing, I believe is from irresponsible breeders who do not have the breed integrity in mind, just money. That's where the research for a good breeder comes in. I have never come across one that resembles a pom in any way, though Allie can yap at times like one! There is no Pom in there, that I am sure. A Merle Pom, now that could be interesting! Don't give them any ideas Kas!!

As for the weakening of the Gene Pool, that is a good point. I haven't research that far since I have no desire to breed Minis at this point. You should respond to the NAMSCUSA and ask them, they seem very willing to provide info.

All in all, Allie really isn't that much smaller than Ice. Allie is 16" and Ice is about 21", he is on the smaller and stockier side.

Allie has travelled with us quite a bit and I have yet to run into someone that condemns her, help the sap that does that to my face! They are good for smaller homes, they do still have the same requirements for exercise and a job. I believe Allie has the need for more exercise than Ice. She is Aussie through and through. Pick you mini breeder wisely and remember they no couch potatoes.

[agcranfill]

Ah, I knew I might have been a little aggressive. I think my response was only partially directed at you. It was more towards people who have shared harsher words with me in the past. I didn't mean to upset. I tried to say that at the bottom. You know.. where I mentioned respecting your opinions and stating that I might have gotten heated? That's what that was about.

I have seen some breeders websites who talk about how their show line dogs are different from the working variety, and then also have a tab that talks about how minis do not represent the original purpose of the breed. In that I see hypocrisy.

I am not trying to start a cyber feud. I did not mean to imply you had opinions that you do not, nor attack you for doing me the favor of responding to my post.

But also in my defense, the last point of your post does twist my own words and seems rather condescending. I never said I wanted a dog for its aesthetics. That is an assumption you made that is in line with some of the more judgmental opposers. I want an athletic, outgoing, friendly, loyal, intelligent dog. Where did I say I just wanted a pretty dog? I love almost all of the characteristics of an Aussie. I don't have a need for a dog that herds. I am interested in agility and maybe flyball. But my housing has size restrictions on Aussies. So what a dream that I found the Mini. And all this aside, I find poodles and poms obnoxious looking and acting. But, thats just me.

But with all of this said, can we just lower the temperature in here? I knew I was gambling when I even brought this topic up. Totally on me. And I displaced some of my anger on you. Also, my fault. But come on, can you identify with a few of my opinions? I can with yours! Lets find some middle ground.

[kian]

We posted at the same time! I know AA wasn't looking to offend you, yes we do like to have reasonable dialogues and as Moderator it should stay that way. I do think the other forums have been harsh, like I mentioned before, I don't go to them.
I don't deal with irrational and closed minded people I don't even know. We have good community of long time members here, so stay with us and you will fit right in.

Do you have a date to pick up yours yet?

[agcranfill]

Oh I was in the middle of typing when Kian responded.

I want to apologize again. I am a nice person, cross my heart. I had no idea I'd be the one being a little jerkish in this thread.

And good, Kian, I'm glad no one has tried to badmouth your adorable mini. I guess people get a big mouth when its anonymous on the internet (as I have proved).

And also, though I was taking a different position, I really don't mind if my guy is a herder. We have canada geese and mallards that swim and roam around the creek in my backyard, it would be fun to watch him go at it. I am only concerned about the fate of my cat! The only Aussie trait I'd change is the reservation. I've never had a dog that didn't just run up and love on strangers. Its just all I have known.

And my guy is a real Aussie, just smaller. He has Aussie traits. I just sort of ran on a weird train of thought with that whole, need for working dogs, so what if they don't herd thing. There was a lot of caffeine involved.

[agcranfill]

It happened again!

Fast posters we are, Kian.

And I do have a date. I bring him home April 30. He will be about 8 1/2 weeks old.

Am I crazy for being so defensive of a dog I haven't even met yet? Actually, don't answer that. Haha.

I think its just because I can't get him off of my mind. I have a countdown on my phone. (30 days left). And I need an updated picture! It's been 8 whole days.

Ps- also for the record, I haven't ever partaken in any of those heated forums. I just read them. I haven't been leaving a trail of mini activism across the internet

[4CrazyCanines]

Agcranfill -- When I said "you", I meant the general you, not specifically you. It definitely applies more to the "toy" Aussies when it comes to people that want something that looks like an Aussie but doesn't act like an Aussie. And again, I just wanted to show you why those that are opposed to "minis" and "toys" are, not trying to say a "mini" isn't a "real" Aussie. With any breed, there are going to be good and bad breeders and of course the breeders that market to idiots just to make a quick buck. The majority of "minis" and "toys" that I have met have definitely been unathlethic, low drive dogs with questionable structures ... but with merle coats, trying to get the average idiot to go, "Oh, how pretty! I want it!" So again, if you're getting a correct mini like Allie that preserves the Aussie traits and is an Aussie through-and-though (just smaller), then I see nothing wrong in that. And again, I mean "you" as the general you, not specifically you

[4CrazyCanines]

I think we're all on the same page here ... I just played devil's advocate and gave you the side that I've seen/heard during my experiences in the Aussie world. I'm glad that you're going to play agility and possibly flyball with your new guy. As Kian and I have mentioned, they need a job or they'll kill you lol. I play agility, disc, and herding with both Diesel and Kylie and Kian does agility and SAR with hers (and flyball maybe?). And as Kian mentioned, not every Aussie (no matter the size or lineage) is going to have herding instinct and herding capability. Diesel definitely inherited his dad's drive and herding ability ... even though he's only 1/2 Aussie from an oops! litter, he herds just as well (if not better) than some purebred Aussies. I always call him an "Aussie" because everything from his color to his herding style to his biddability screams Aussie. My OH and I got Kylie because we fell in love with the breed so much through Diesel. Anyway, I digress ...

Can you tell which one is which? Just kidding haha ...


Edit: To add picture.