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Beaucerons

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Beaucerons

Postby iheartmydog on Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:57 pm

Does anyone have any experience with them? I've been trying to find some trusty sights with information on them but I keep getting link that talk about all that dominance crud that annoys me. And says stuff like "Does your dog bark? Learn to be his alpha." :roll: :| So I don't consider them trustworthy sources of information.

How are the working bred ones? I plan on doing bitesports in the future which is why for my next dog I'm looking into getting a German Shepherd Dog from a working breeder.
I like dogs who are always on the go, have to be doing something, toy obsessions are a good thing :lol:, stable in street situations. What I mean by that is a dog I can take onto the field and go after a decay, yet greet him after bitework is over and be friendly with folks in the public.

(No personal protection work, things like Schutzhund, possibly French Ring)
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Re: Beaucerons

Postby Phyrie on Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:25 pm

I think you are looking for two different dogs. While I don't know anything about "bite sports" (sounds awful!), I have watched several videos that dealt with police dogs, search dogs, etc. That high drive is great for these kinds of jobs, but a dog that is nuts for, say, pull toys, is difficult to divert or redirect into calm behaviour. A dog that is encouraged to bark, jump, grab arms, insist on play at all times, etc. simply won't be a dog that will walk calmly into a huge crowd.

Since I have no personal experience with these dogs, I can't say that this is "fact", so of course, do your own research. But it seems to me that each desired trait cancels the other out.
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Re: Beaucerons

Postby Emma & Kay on Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:43 pm

Phyrie, with the bite work Cel (?) mentioned (Schutzhund) your dog is put through intense Obedience training, intense Tracking, and THEN you're sent through to the last stage - Protection. You're only taken to stage three if your dog excells in both Obedience and then Tracking.

Your dog has to be reliable in a series of Obedience commands. Distance commands, focus commands, recall, basic & advanced commands. If you can't command your dog "Down" at 60 foot and get an instant response, then you can't move on to Tracking. I think the new "requirement" for heeling is the dog looking at you as it walks. Which is a bit weird. IMO, it should be watching where it's going, not your face.

"PPT", or Persons/Personal Protection Training, is completely different. You're given a brief view of obedience, and then straight to attack training.

Schutzhund is what's taught to Police Canine Units, I think.

I was briefly interested in getting Kayenne into the sport. I decided that Obedience training was enough, but I would enjoy Schutzhund with a dog, I think. Not for a few years, though!
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Re: Beaucerons

Postby iheartmydog on Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:48 pm

Phyrie, I've been looking into Schutzhund dogs, high drive dogs for a long time now. I've met many.
These dogs for example.
http://www.truehaus.com/

They actually do more fight drive training (which is the titles like PD1 AKA Police Dog 1) since they found Schutzhund not demanding enough. The setting are put into more real life situations. Yet I've met every single one of those dogs and seen them around kids and in the public. A good clear headed dog is what you want for sports.

This is a common confusion in bite sports dogs. There are dogs who would be dangerous in public, because they're often labeled as "High drive" but it's actually a lot of nervous energy.

Schutzhund for the most part is more of a fun game to the dogs, depending on the group and the decoy, but it is equipment based.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtSYpyVf ... Q&index=77

And just for an example, I realize this is one dog but there are many dogs like her. My friend has a American Pit Bull Terrier who is quite good at the sport and has a lot of drive. She can work her hard on the field, and then go play with the decoy right after. She has taken her dog to Schutzhund practice then right after to her parents for a Christmas Party and she was the star of the party.

I've seen a lot of people do examples where they're give the dog the command to bite/send them out on someone who doesn't have a visible sleeve, and the dog won't bite because they can't find the sleeve.


Police units train their dogs with hidden sleeves, that go under jackets and sleeves, pants, etc. For the reason I mentioned above.


Dakota is quite obsessed over his fox, and any of his toys. His toy is SOOOOO much more valuable than any piece of food. So I had to teach him that controlling himself gets him his reward. You just have to learn to teach them to control themselves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiWh4UECSVw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6PxjcJ4 ... re=related (Yes that's Alice whining in the background)
Something that helps with a dog that may be toy obsessed and really focused on that and blowing off the handler is not rewarding them until they give eye contact. I had to do that with Dakota, everything includes eye contact, even waiting for his food.

And personally I much prefer a focus heel, besides keeping the dog more engaged it takes more training, and I find a good heel a thing of beauty.

Sorry if any of this sounds jumbled, info from my brain is spilling out. :roll: :lol:

But Dakota is like that, he can go from this:
Image
Image
To this:
Image
Image
Image


Does that make any sense? There's a lot of misconceptions and elitism attitudes in Schutzhund. But you can have a dog who's a good house pet and a good bitework dog. But you are correct that there are some dogs out there who wouldn't be stable in a crowd, some people like dogs like that, the ones I saw had a lot of nervous and frustrated energy and it was being labeled as "Drive". But I prefer a stable dog.
In Schutzhund when they say they're challenging the dog's fight drive, generally it's the dog's willingness to take on a someone threatening them for their sleeve (which is more like a toy in their eyes) Think of a game of tug, you may make growling sounds, bend over the dog, press on their head, charge straight at them, hit them with empty bottles, spray them with water, and a lot of dogs would back away from that. But a Schutzhund dog would be one who would continue to go for the sleeve.

I hope that makes sense. :lol:
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Re: Beaucerons

Postby Margie-Rex's Mom on Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:05 pm

I have a very close friend who is a police officer and his partner is a K-9. His first police dog, Kilo, died a few years ago. Kilo was a HUGE black Shepherd. He would be the exact dog you are talking about wanting, Cel. He was one of the most amazing dogs I have ever known.

My friend's current partner is a Belgian Malinois. He is also an amazing dog...but not one I would trust in a crowd of people. He has the constant energy movement thing happening. He spend most of his time when he is off duty and at home, in his crate. His choice, usually. He gets too nervous around the children. Kilo on the other hand, would lay on the floor and let the two year old walk on him after getting home from his shift and having "bitten" two drug dealers earlier in the day.

Cel, I commend you for your desire to work with this type of dog. It is a very intensive training...and unending. You are a very smart young lady...and you know your stuff.

Good luck!! :mrgreen:
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Re: Beaucerons

Postby iheartmydog on Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:17 pm

Why thank you for the kind comments! :D I love busy-body dogs. Dogs that just lay around and hang out while you're at home aren't really my type of dog. After a nice long work out, sure, but I like dogs who will bug me to go out and work because they enjoy it. Dakota will do that, he'll walk by me and growl excitedly when he is bored. I have things to keep him busy if I need some time to focus, raw meaty knuckle bones, Kongs, etc. I sort of need them to keep me going so I'm not on my butt for too long. :lol:

And I forgot to say this earlier. When I was talking to our local police officer they said they start the dogs off in Schutzhund then slowly transit over to police training. Which is different because Schutzhund is more fun, equipment based as I mentioned. Yet bad guys aren't going to be carrying a sleeve or a bite suit, they aren't going to kindly stand there for a bite. So they are trained differently, with hidden sleeves, more demanding, realistic situations. And often during agitation work the decoy will challenge the dog and the dog is expected to not back down.

But both are all about making your dog confident in his abilities from the start.
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Re: Beaucerons

Postby lynners on Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:19 pm

Cel you may be interested in Steve White's training work. He trains police dogs and dogs for bite sports using mostly positive reinforcement and negative punishment (which I know you'll think is awesome - and rare - in those fields!).
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Re: Beaucerons

Postby iheartmydog on Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:28 pm

Thank you for the suggestion, I'll look into him. :D
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Re: Beaucerons

Postby iheartmydog on Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:20 am

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Re: Beaucerons

Postby iheartmydog on Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:27 am

Phyrie did I explain that well? I'm not always good with words :lol: Trying to explain it so it's a bit easier to understand. There are a lot of things floating around about Schutzhund, a lot of things are very off, people think it's dog vs man but really it isn't. You often here people say "The corrupt politics of Schutzhund." :lol:
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