Biting and Nipping

[WinstonsMomma]

These are great tips! When Winston was a real young puppy and going through teething, he liked to think our fingers and arms were his favorite chew toy. We have done the sharp "no" and "ouch" and that helps a little bit. The biggest thing we have had success with on top of the sharp ouch is giving him an acceptable toy to chew with. That has really cut down on the nipping and biting because now he knows the correct toys to chew. Sometimes when he still gets overly mouthing we give him a shake on the nape of his neck and a shot of bitter apple (if he's really being mouthy) and that knocks him out of his habits real quick. He's a lot better now, but still a work in progress!

[Oliver & Henry's Mum]

I would like it if Lynners or Kian, or any of our other experts on the matter weighed in, as I don't think giving your dog a good shake by the scruff and actually spraying the DOG with bitter apple spray is the best way to handle to things.

Obviously exchanging ones hands and arms for an acceptable toy, which is called "redirection" is a great idea.

I don't know what is happening prior to your dog thinking that hands and arms are still acceptable, without looking into the age of your pup, etc. Once they have finished teething, the mouthing becomes much less, and is often affectionate in nature. However, if there is rough play which results in nipping, then it would be best not to initiate that kind of play.

Capture the good behaviour and avoid the undesired behaviour.

Usually by six months of age, they start to figure it out. I am against any form of corporal punishment which spraying bitter apple directly at one's dog, falls into that category, as does giving the scruff of their neck a good shake. Those actions should not be required.

I hope that WinstonsMomma has read the thread in its entirety! I also hope that some of our more knowledgeable members will chime in regarding what I consider to be corporal punishment.

[DixieDoodle]

I agree 100% with you Deb, that holding the dog by the scruff and spraying it is not the answer to your problem. Training does not happen over night and you need to stay consistent through the whole thing. Keep up with the redirecting, and lose the spray bottle! Look at it this way, you wouldn't grab hold of a child who was being "naughty" and spray it in the face because it is wrong, and cruel-same goes with an animal!

WinstonsMomma- Please don't take my above comment as a personal attack on you, it is meant for the general public

[Cassandra86]

Hey all,

So I've read through this whole thread and searched the word "biting" in the "Behavior and Training" forum and read everything I could find. My remaining question is this:

Can/Should all the suggested methods to correct biting be used on a 2 year old dog as well? (neutered, pretty well training, Bouvier Des Flandres).

Or, are there other methods that should be used on dogs rather than puppies?

Because of his big mouth and big teeth his bites (although not meant to be harmful) pack quite a punch sometimes. No broken skin, but bruising sometimes so I would like to squash this behavior sooner rather than later.

I know consistency is key, but sometimes it's hard when other household members don't agree with the method chosen (the males in the house are more than reluctant to make a high pitch yelp when they're being nipped or bit ).

Just to give an idea, he usually nips/bites when he gets excited. Either by play (or wanting to play even if I'm still in bed) or when we try to get him to do something he doesn't feel like doing (leaving a room he shouldn't be in). When the latter occurs, his bites are usually harder.

If the same methods should be used, just let me know and I'll be more than willing to go back and read all the instructions and suggestions a 3rd time

Thanks!

[Phyrie]

A bite from a 2 year old dog is NOT the same as a bite from a teething four month old puppy! Have you had this dog since he was a pup, or did you get him as an adult? Before we go further, I would like to know. If you've had him since puppyhood, has this always been an issue?

This is a big problem, and you are going to need help. What you consider playful bites (or bratty bites, when he's refusing to obey you) are NOT playful. While I am not a maniacal proponent of "dominant" theory, or "pack hierarchy" ala Cesar Milan, I do take the leadership role when it comes to dogs. I am the boss, period, and they know. Frankly, I'd probably be considered the boss of the entire house, but it's not a title I claim, it's just sort of fallen on me, as it does to many mothers and wives in a home. Regardless, an adult dog that is biting his family while playing is bad enough, but him biting to indicate his displeasure is much, much worse!

We need more info, please.

[kian]

This is a hard one as I really need to see this one and test which method would work best. So here it goes.......I will agree you need to squash this right now. First I would try this: Arms straight up like a tree with a very loud "NO" and walking away. The yelp at this age prob won't work as now you have a grown dog that can take much more correction.

Assertiveness is the key here to correct this. Never push him away, that is a move that actually makes him do this more.
Also I might stamp my feet on the floor to show my disapproval further and don't forget the look! Keep your face stern very stern, very serious.

I see Phyrie just posted and I have the same questions.

Phyrie aren't the men the boss of the house..............when we allow them?

Deb I just read the previous post regarding the scruff of the neck and the bitter apple, I say no way. Spraying a chemical into a dogs mouth is wrong, very wrong. Shaking the neck can injure a puppy and is not needed. You answered that perfectly, though I see that is a older post.

[Oliver & Henry's Mum]

Thanks Kian.

Having rescued a Bouvier, who was about 2 and was supposed to euthanized for his "aggressive" behaviour, I have some experience with the Breed.

My Father always claimed I named my older son after him, which I did not, but his name was Ben. To me, he was Gentle Ben, like the Bear. He came from a very abusive environment, where they tried to "attack train" him a la 80's style. Little human contact, hurting and hitting him to make him fight back...horrible.

I really was too young for him, and inexperienced but we managed for a while. I agree totally with everything Kian said about how to stop this behaviour now. In my opinion, Bouvier's need to be constantly reminded who is actually in charge, as they really are so sweet, and very, very protective of their humans.

It is essential to really work with a Bouvier, socializing as well as training through the "teen" years, which is about 2 years of age for a dog. I can assure you that all the time I had Ben, I never had to lock the door.

Unfortunately, he was not healthy and I did not have him for nearly long enough.

Many dogs enjoy playful mouthing, and I think of Goldens when I say this, but mouthing as a demonstration of displeasure has to be stopped. It is imperative that the "others" in your household, and in his life, understand that consistency is absolutely key. Dumb it down so they understand cause and effect.

You've also posted a very good question as most of these threads are geared to the initial raising of a puppy, as opposed to rehabilitation, or correction a bit later in life.

Keep us posted please. We would love to see pictures.

[Phyrie]

We have a backyard breeder of Bouviers here on the island. They are known for being "hard to train", "stubborn", and "unmanageable". One tried to kill Kiba on a walk one day when he was just a pup (Kiba, I'm not sure how old the Bouv was). The guy who owns it has so many complaints about this dog, I don't know why he still has it. His tools aren't even real. The day he went after Kiba, the idiot was walking his huge dog on a clothesline tied to his collar. Of course the guy had to drop it when his dog took off! He had the plastic-wrapped metal line wrapped around his fist! Wouldn't have hurt my feelings if the idiot had lost a finger or two. Paul even talked about carrying a club on his walks, so he could better defend themselves against this neighbourhood menace. But I digress. I have heard Bouviers are a challenging breed, but my references are only from the badly bred ones here, so I don't know what value that little nugget is. Regardless, your dog shouldn't be biting you, no matter what his breed!

We will await more info...

[lynners]

You've been given great info from the members above, but I do want to give my two cents really quick.

You're describing two entirely different things.

When he's excited and playful, what you're describing is known as mouthing (as Deb mentioned). It is NOT a bite, it is NOT aggressive. Dogs play with their mouths, and your dog just hasn't learned that it's not appropriate to do that to people. My very first foster dog mouthed a lot - but he was considered to be "bomb proof" anyway. When he put his mouth on an arm, the arm wasn't withdrawn quickly (that's likely to make them chase), and he wasn't pushed away (as Kian mentioned that makes them want to do it more). Instead, we held completely still. No interaction whatsoever. Mouthing the arm lost it's appeal very quickly! Of course if your dog finds gnawing itself rewarding, rather than the attention it gets, I would employ what Kian described, of course with no sudden movements likely to make them chase the arm.

When your dog puts his mouth on you when asked to do something that he doesn't want to do, and if it's associated with other aggressive displays or behaviours (freezing, staring, lunging, lip curling, growling)...that's indicative of a Level 2 bite. In my personal opinion, THAT is the thing that's entirely unacceptable and you need professional help in correcting it (as Phyrie and the others also stated).

[Cassandra86]

Thanks for all the information everyone and for confirming that dealing with this is not the same as dealing with a puppy (I didn't actually think the yelping would help).

First, to answer Phyrie and Kian's question, we adopted him almost 4 months ago. Trust me, if I had him since he was a puppy this would not be a problem.

There are no other signs of aggression other than the biting when he doesn't want to do something. In fact, if we stop for a second, he will stop too and then rest his head on us. But of course I don't want to do this because then he wins.

Aside from this he's a really good dog. He actually just graduated from Basic Obedience and got 2nd place out of 20 other dogs (2 classes together). I was really proud of him. I fully intend on continuing in obedience as far as we can because with a dog his size and strength it's really important to me that he is the best dog he can be and sees me as #1. But this biting issue sort of puts a damper on my plan.

I understand how ceasing play, saying "NO!" and walking away during play would help with the mouthing but as I mentioned above, if I did this for his biting would that not say to him that he won?

And don't worry I will never resort to any type of punishment (spraying him etc). My boyfriend suggested we try spray and after I flat out said my dog will never be sprayed in the face he asked why. My answer: "Well ok, how about this, whenever you do something I don't like, I will spray you in the face and see how that works. Then you can tell me if you still want to try it." (wouldn't really matter what his answer is, I'd still say no).

I could see if we can catch it on video next time. Maybe it would help.

[lynners]

if I did this for his biting would that not say to him that he won?

When he's excitable during play, no. He's mouthing for attention and attention is being removed.

When he's biting after being told what to do, kind of. Every time that he's told what to do, and he bites, and he doesn't have to do something, yes he's "won" and it's reinforced the fact that him using his mouth works. You need to be creative, using management and training, to stop him from putting his mouth on you when being asked to do something.

If he's in a room that he's not supposed to be in, the solution can be as simple as closing the door or putting up a baby gate. If he has something that he's not supposed to have, it can be as simple as visually sweeping your house every single day and picking up misplaced items. Or, it can be significantly more involved like teaching a rock solid leave it, drop it, come here when I call your name no matter what you're doing. It's entirely possible to teach these things using positive reinforcement based methods.

[Oliver & Henry's Mum]

Perfect post Lynners!

Cassandra - I'm glad you used that analogy on your BF. Clearly, we are from the same school of thought.

It sounds as if you are doing everything possible to teach your dog to be a good, canine citizen, which he will be. This is just a rough patch...the "teen" years, where limits are tested and defined. Lynners is very, very smart!!! (She's sweet too ).

A video of the undesirable behaviour, if at all possible, would add greatly to the conversation. I am looking forward to hearing updates.

Phyrie, it's a shame you have a backyard breeder on your island giving the entire Breed a bad name. Bouviers are wonderful dogs. They are so intelligent and loving, but extremely protective of their humans. Because I rescued Ben from abuse, he adored me. No one could get near me when he was around...no one.

Keep us posted Cassandra!

[Phyrie]

Surprisingly, we have at least two others, that I know of. One breeds Yorkies, and the other a few different small breeds, including birds! The SPCA shut the last one down several times, which I think finally worked. The other is still churning out tiny Yorkies, simply for the money. They do seem to care for their dogs, at least as far as the SPCA is concerned, so they are allowed to continue.

[Oliver & Henry's Mum]

Phyrie, that's amazing! When Puppy Mills first became "popular" or known is probably a better name for it, in the late 70's, early 80's, they were rampant around here. Apparently these types of people prefer smaller communities where it is harder to catch them as the resources available in smaller municipalities often isn't great enough to enforce the rules.

Back to biting and nipping....

I will be most interested to hear how Cassandra manages in her endeavours with her Bouvier. I would also love to see some pictures.

[Cassandra86]

Good morning everyone!

So I had a chat with all the household members and let them know how we are going to correct Boucane's mouthing.

First of all, no more gentle "ah ah"'s while continuing to playing with him or pet him. As soon as you feel teeth, don't yank away but say "NO!" in a firm tone, stop touching him, cross your arms and turn your attention to something else. As soon as he's relaxed for a few minutes, he can receive quite pets and a "good boy".

I didn't try the hands in the air method because I have a feeling this will make him jump up. But if you think this method would most likely work better than crossed arms I will try it out.

This weekend was great for putting this procedure into practice because he was particularly hyper and playful. Sunday morning while my bf was sitting on the edge of the bed, Boucane started nuzzling him and pawing at him trying to play and just as my bf was starting to pet him, Boucane started mouthing. As discussed, he said "NO!" in a firm and very loud voice (louder than I've ever heard him actually). It definitely worked like a charm. But I was wondering if maybe he was too loud because it seemed to actually startled Boucane. Is this a bad thing? Should I tell him not to be AS loud?

As for the biting, it has only come up a couple times in the last week so I think this one will take a while to overcome. But as an example, I was brushing him last night and I started on his thighs and he turned his head and started biting my arm/hand. I told him "No!, Be gentle" (he knows "gentle" quite well), repeated it a couple of times and he let me continue. It wasn't very tangled and he had no irritation there so I'm not sure why he was doing it especially since he just fell asleep while I did the rest of his body (and returned to that area with a comb).

I don't know that this method should really be used because I don't feel that it re-enforces, to Boucane, how important it is (for lack of a better word) that he remove his teeth/mouth from the skin immediately.

Lynners, I'm not sure I understand how a solid drop it, leave it and/or recall would help with this situation
Do you just mean general solid training so that he listen's to me not matter what the situation we're in?


Pictures and video will be along shortly. I just got a new Digital SLR so Boucane will be by model.