Need to know more about these dogs (ACD)

[wyorancher]

My wife and I just got a new Australian Cattle Dog that is 16 months old after losing our border collie due to medical problems.

Since we are on a ranch I expected this cattle dog to be head strong dog that wanted to be outside and be very active like the border collie that couldn't wait to get in the tractor etc.. Instead this dog seems to want to just hang around the house. He seems to be bonding quite well with my wife. However, is this an uncommon problem with some of these cattle dogs. Are some of these dogs just inside loving dogs?

[kian]

Here is the ACD thread: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=2782

I am very experienced with this breed, having owned and bred. Unlike BC's they want to be with thier human pack and do attach more to a specific person in the home. I have owned a BC and she was content to be outside watching the world, not like my ACD's. She joined us in the house, but did enjoy being outside where she could run and play.

My Pirate loved to ride on the Tractor, the truck and went with us when we rode the horses. When we had to move into town, he was still my constant shadow. It mattered not if I was in the house or outside, he was there. He was excellent off leash on our mountain hikes and always knew where I was.

Does your have the driving instinct?
BC's are gatherers of the herd and ACD's are the drivers

[wyorancher]

Our ACD is new to us, 16 months old but we have only had him for about a week. He is bonding with my wife. What is surprising though is that he seems to want to hang inside more than go outside. We had read quite a bit about ACDs before getting Jake but he seems totally opposite of the breed. He is content sleeping at my wife's feet all day. Outside he seems very timid. I took him out this morning on the leash. After walking him around a bit he didn't relieve himself so I took the leash off. He tried to get back inside but the door was closed. Then he took off in the dark. We got concerned because we have wolves and coyotes around here that eat dogs. My wife found him about 45 minutes later. Of course, as soon as he got into the house he relieved himself. Seems like that is his choice place to go. Fortunately we have tile floors.

We have some ACD books ordered so maybe that will be of some help.

[kian]

One week isn't long enough for him to adjust. How was he raised during before you got him, that can play a lot into any dogs behaviour. Being sneaky is a trait, but not timid. Give him time to adjust, I would not like any dog using my house to relieve themselves, that is very strange as he is older & should have no problem going outside. What do know about his history?

[wyorancher]

Jake came out of a breeders kennel. He was crate trained. Now I am beginning to think he spent many hours during the day in the crate, not just nights in the crate. He looks for dark hiding places around the house. At first I thought the timidness was my 6 ft 2 inch frame and 14 boots. I'm am starting to wonder if he was mistreated by a male person. We'll see as time goes on.

We had a border collie before that was an abused dog and I see some of the same traits but don't think that was the case here because he came from a breeder. He was well fed because he is picky on the food he eats. Our border collie was so abused and starved that he would gobble down any food and hide the rest for later. The border collie would take off but always came back. I think he was looking for food and afraid of being caged. That border collie, although abused, was house broken within days.

The other thing that I was surprised about in Jake, is he has had very little training for his age. He will walk on a leash, but that seems to be the extent of the training.

We have a scheduled appointment with the vet today for general exam and rattle snake shot. Maybe he can give us some of his thoughts about the timidness.

[wyorancher]

Vet claims the ACDs are overly aggressive or timid, not much between. Maybe timid is the better of the two after we work with him a while.

He is a good looking dog. Probably just a difficult change after having a dog that acted almost human.

[kian]

Don't confuse timid with shy or sneaking. Timid means being afraid of everything that moves, jumps or flies. A shy dog is wary of strangers but not of it's environment. Herding dogs should never be afraid of it's environment and should be fearless, which is why a ACD is not for a novice dog owner. They want to herd, nip & can be hard headed but never over aggressive. If a ACD is timid or over aggressive then that is bad breeding. I bred for the herding instinct, willingness and temperament. Your vet is not totally accurate in his assessment, in a medical setting any dog can be timid or aggressive. Given where you live, he has more than likely seen a lot of ACD's, there were a lot where I came from in N. Utah and in California. I am currently working with two & they are wonderful to train.

Breeders can be bad and sadly it sounds like yours is, no dog should be living in a crate, should be well socialized and by 16 months should have been learning herding skills, given the ranching area where you live.

My Pirate could be aggressive to other dogs, did not like small children but never was he over aggressive. He was a willing worker which they should be. I do wonder about the enviroment where yours came from, it doesn't sound like the best place to be. Do you know how old he was when he was taken from the litter?

Yes is a good looking dog, beautiful color.

[wyorancher]

I have been around a lot of dogs in 70 plus years. Jake is very timid. We're trying to work through these things. First major thing I noticed is that Jake tries to eat his fecal matter. I suspect this may be from crate training and being left in the crate for long periods of time. I noticed this trait in my previous border collie that had been abused before he showed up on our door step. We knew that owner and he would leave the dog all day in the back of his pickup. If the dog relieved himself he would get beaten, if the dog jumped out of the truck he would get beaten. The dog's solution was to eat his own fecal matter. Very sad.

Jake seems more afraid of men than women. He is coming out a little bit. He went for a walk with me without a leash this morning. he stayed mostly along side. If I stopped and moved toward him he would lay down, ears would go down, like I was going to smack him. I tried to encourage him for being a good dog to calm his fears.

He has a few bad manners but at this point I am more concerned about some of his other problems and fear. We have been putting him in the crate at night but most of the day he sleeps. Wife and I think he may be staying awake all night, then sleeping during the day.

Some training books are coming today on ACDs. Maybe we can get more info on breed stuff.

I'm really tempted to get rid of the crate and change training techniques. I'm not sure about this crate training method.

[virgilsmama]

One thing I know...forget about figuring out why he is a corprophagiac(?SP). This is something I have researched throughout my dog owning life...there is no real answer. Clean it up as soon as possible. Your poor dog sound like he needs a lot of LOVE and patience, he is probably in the right home now to get some of both. Not a lot of people would do what you are doing to help him, I wish you the best with your new dog. Long live the rescued and their rescuers!

[kian]

Yes Liz is right, poop clean-up as soon as possible to help with this. There are products on the market to add his food, sometimes crushed pineapple helps.

When you walk with him, change direction and let him follow, that will help you a lot with trust and bonding. It does sound like he wasn't treated well, which is very sad. You do have your work cut out for you. If he is treat motivated, tossing a few treats when he changes direction with you will do wonders. Just toss and keep walking, that's it.

Why was he with a breeder for 16 months? Could they not find a home for him earlier?

I turned in a young man for doing exactly what was done to the BC. I witness him leave a puppy in the truck and of course the puppy had a accident to which I witnessed the beating. He was arrested as I was a credible witness and well known in the little town I lived.

Do you have more pictures of him?

[wyorancher]

This evening I sat on the floor with his food dish and finally got him to come over to eat. Made him sit first. He has sheer fright of males. Neighbor male came over today and same thing. No problems with females. He follows my wife all over the place.

[Oliver & Henry's Mum]

Ditto what Liz said! (Virgil's Mom)

Kudos to you for your patience, understanding, love and knowledge. Kian has a great deal of experience, and I'm certain if you two continue to discuss these issues, a solution will be found.

It hurts my soul when I hear of stupid people having dogs. Abuse of any defenseless creature makes my blood boil, and my skin crawl. Bless you again for your patience, understanding and willingness to find solutions.

[wyorancher]

I have been making some progress with Jake. I have, with the Wife's help put him on a daily schedule. Out of the crate at about 4:30AM, we're up anyway, this is ranching country, and Jake goes outside on his own. This is the scary part because this is very rural and no fences that would hold in a dog. I leave him outside for about 1 hour. Then back in and he gets fed. Little bit of loving, then back outside again until we get our day started. We try to keep an close eye out that he isn't wandering off too far. Yesterday seemed to work out pretty good and he is opening up a little bit. I don't like to chain dogs or put them in pens if I can help it. I want Jake to feel this is his home and he has to be happy here not kept here like a prisoner. That said, we do worry about him getting hurt but like I mentioned we are watching him fairly closely and when outside he is starting to come to me when I call him.

[virgilsmama]

Bravo!!!! on every positive step you take and every little move you make with Jake. My heart aches just thinking of any hurt to this dog. You will help erase this and you will all become great friends. All of us will be as happy as you are with the progress. I found that sitting on the floor helped me with my Daisy when we first adopted her. She ate like a wild maniac...not exaggerating, it was pitiful. I believe someone threw her meal at her every day. I had never seen a dog eat like that. Anyway being on the floor and feeding her one piece at a time was a very bonding experience. She learned to eat properly and dogs just love it when you do not always "stand over them". Best wishes to you and your wife. I swear your posts bring tears to my eyes, good tears for your progress and you know what the sad ones are for. Sincerely, Liz, Daisy and Buddy

[wyorancher]

I don't stand over him when he eats. I'm just trying to teach him some manners when he goes up to the bowl. He has been slowing down and eating a little at a time. His teeth, at 16 months, were totally brown with tarter when we got him. In the short time we've had him on dry food and milk bones all that tarter has gone and his teeth are white again. I suspect they were feeding sloppy mush at the breeder's kennel. If you mix with water it makes more bulk. I think this dog was locked up for the entire 16 months. Their story was that this dog was the pick of the litter, he is a good looking dog, and when they found out his bite was off they didn't want to show him. They neutered him and put him up for sale. We got him based just on his picture.

He has been sleeping in the crate every night. Now when I take him out in the morning he doesn't go beserko trying to get out. He just layed there this morning, like "is it time to get up?". Walked outside on the leash and I turned him loose. He hangs on the porch, but does do a little investigating on his own. Yesterday he spent some time out in the field when I was picking up gated pipe.

He is in and out of the house throughout the day and hasn't had any more accidents in the house. Went to town with me in the PU and seems fairly contented with going for rides.

Next we are going to try to get rid of the crate. Maybe just take off the door, or leave it open for a few nights first.

He looks more contented in this picture, then when we got him.