Barking...should I be worried?

[kurimusoda]

Hello again, DP! Douglas will have his first birthday on the 23rd of this month. He's been doing great! At over 140 lbs, he hasn't completely mastered "heel," but on the leash he rarely ever pulls (except if something spooks him... we're working with him on his fear of bikes and trashcans).

However, the only aspect of training that has me confused thus far is his barking! Months ago he would only bark when he hears a car pull into our driveway, and when someone is opening the door, but recently that threshold of what triggers his barking has decreased to even when he hears the neighbors coming home (we live in a duplex, with adjacent driveways). The family living next door to us has been there for a while--long before his barking became more frequent.

Another trigger for his barking is when guests walk around the house while our bedroom door is closed (Douglas sleeps with us in our bedroom). Sometimes we have family visit and stay the night, and in the morning if they are up before us, he will bark and the sound of their footsteps outside the door. This is so perplexing for me, because the second I open the door, he greets the guests (with whom he met and played happily the day before) with a wagging tail.

FYI, for people who are unfamiliar with Douglas, he is a mutt: 1/4 husky, 1/4 German Shepherd, 1/4 Saint Bernard, and 1/4 mastiff. Before I attributed his barking to the German Shepherd part of him, but he has never barked at squirrels or neighboring dogs. And he somehow is able to differentiate the sound of a car pulling into our driveway versus the cars of those neighbors who live in houses that are across the street and to the opposite side of the other duplex.

Is there any way to get him to stop barking at the neighbors and our guests?

[Oliver & Henry's Mum]

With the guests, he is simply doing what a dog is supposed to do...alerting you to the fact that someone is in the house who doesn't "belong". He won't remember whom he met the day or night before, or realize that they are spending the night. That's a tough one.

We had threads on here about barking, but I don't really remember any successful method to cease the barking. It's not always a bad thing that your dog alerts you. They are a great deterrent for robbers and others who might wish to enter who shouldn't.

If he is simply alert barking, even at the neighbours, and it doesn't last for long as some types of dogs are wont to do then I wouldn't worry about it too much. I know it can be jarring, but unless it's incessant I don't know what to say.

Hopefully some of our other members will have some advice to offer that is far more helpful than my little blurb.

I'll wish Douglas an early Happy Birthday in case I miss it on the 23rd. My Oliver just celebrated his 9th "Welcome Home" day today. ♥

Good luck to you.

[oldie moldy]

Hi, I saw your question on barking. The way I see it is any good dog deserves three free barks and then it's hush. All limits are off if it's a bear or a burglar. At one year your dog is starting to grow into what he will be for the rest of his life; you need to start training to correct the extra barking right now. The command "no barking" is used for all unwelcome mouth actions. That, by the way, also includes biting. You don't want a lot of commands bating around in your head in moments of duress. And it sounds a lot better if overheard by strangers or the neighbors. So...the barking. You already know some times when your dog will bark; lets pick one, the neighbor coming home. Get you dog setting and just a little before the arrival: eye contact with the dog at all times/raise one finger like pointing (dogs are great with clues and this one is "I'm telling you something and it's important"/command: No Barking (firm voice once)/hold eye contact, dog doesn't know what but knows something is up/(ok, rapid sequence here: neighbor comes, dog barks, you "No Barking!" and grab his muzzle with your hand and keep it closed. If the dog stops barking "good dog" spoken calmly not with a lot of energy, we are striving for control here. Gently ease up on the mouth clamp, but be ready if he starts again. Hold the eye contact, the message is that "I'm more important in your life than that neighbor." Calmly "no barking" hopefully there is no barking, "good dog". With the finger, eye, hand clamp and command we are establishing a training situation; the dog will come to realize that life has limits and indeed requirements of him and that it is not all fun. So...when the attempts to bark cease we've got to ease back into regular life: slow release hand clamp if still on, praise good dog, release from sit. The sit is very important; most simply it's you controlling the dog and he knows it. Always hold the sit until YOU release. If you have a kennel now is a good time to put dog in it to think over what just happened. 5-10 minutes. In this training we set the dog up; we knew what would happen and there's nothing wrong with that. If he just starts barking the drill is the same, you just didn't have any time to get set. No matter, "No Barking!" sit/clamp/eye/ just like we did before.
I'm working off of very little here but you sounded very passive, that's a big dog and passive is the ticket to the loony bin for you and the pound for him. Training classes, go to the library check out dog training books, read several, pick the one you like the best and really digest it.
Best Wishes, Rob

[kurimusoda]

With the guests, he is simply doing what a dog is supposed to do...alerting you to the fact that someone is in the house who doesn't "belong". He won't remember whom he met the day or night before, or realize that they are spending the night. That's a tough one.

For some reason I always thought that dogs had memory capacities similar to humans! Thanks Deb

It's not always a bad thing that your dog alerts you. They are a great deterrent for robbers and others who might wish to enter who shouldn't.

I love the fact that he has this deep commanding bark, especially because we live on a dead end (next to a cemetery), and sometimes my partner is away for work. Douglas definitely makes me feel safer!

If he is simply alert barking, even at the neighbours, and it doesn't last for long as some types of dogs are wont to do then I wouldn't worry about it too much. I know it can be jarring, but unless it's incessant I don't know what to say.

I wouldn't say that his barking is incessant in the situation with a car pulling up because the sounds associated with them coming home and getting themselves set up in the house end within seconds. When the doorbell rings though he will continue to bark until he sees the person who is at the door. This is problematic with deliveries. In this situation I will use the command "go to bed," and he will go upstairs to our bedroom (where his kennel is kept). So for Douglas, doorbell=barking.

I'll wish Douglas an early Happy Birthday in case I miss it on the 23rd. My Oliver just celebrated his 9th "Welcome Home" day today. ♥

Thank you!! ♥ Happy "Welcome Home" day to Oliver! I hope he got lots of kissies and hugs

[kurimusoda]

The command "no barking" is used for all unwelcome mouth actions.

Hi and thanks for your detailed response! Reading through it was very helpful to me. I'm just curious since I haven't seen you on the forum before, but are you a professional trainer or breeder? Your advice just came off as very "absolute" to me, whereas most people here will say "X is what worked best in my experience, but I have also heard of Y also being effective."

So far we have used the command "no barking" in a firm tone in conjunction with "sit" and "down." If he still can't manage to remain calm I've had to put him in his kennel before.

That, by the way, also includes biting.

Douglas had a brief stint with nipping when he was teething, but we've had no real problems since his adult teeth came in. Occasionally during wrestling he will swing his head around and accidentally whack a hand or leg with the side of his teeth, but generally speaking he is very content keeping his teeth on his Nylabones and off of us

I will definitely try out the sequence that you've described! Since the neighbors come home at unspecific times, I can't really control that situation, but I think we will try out the sequence with either my partner or I ringing the doorbell.

Douglas unfortunately is not very food motivated, but praise works great with him as positive reinforcement.

I'm working off of very little here but you sounded very passive, that's a big dog and passive is the ticket to the loony bin for you and the pound for him. Training classes, go to the library check out dog training books, read several, pick the one you like the best and really digest it.

Perhaps it's because when I go into forum-posting-mode I start writing in more formal language and formal language tends to have more passive sentence structures, but I knew what I was getting myself into with Douglas. Although his mom was only maybe 60 lbs, his dad was a giant at over 200 lbs. Judging from Douglas' paws when he was a puppy, I knew he was going to grow to be even bigger than me. And I'm not doing this alone. My partner has had at least 6 dogs so far, so he's very experienced with raising dogs. He's even raised more challenging puppies such as ones that were mostly wolf. We did the puppy classes and early socialization. And I was the one who obsessively researched into large breed dog foods

The reason I started this thread in the first place is because I wanted to nip this behavior in the bud, and get some cursory information before investing in expensive training sessions that may not be necessary. It's not anything like those situations where some owners might let something get out of hand and then turn to the internet in desperation. In fact I have had the information of several well-regarded dog behaviorists saved, since before we brought Douglas home.

FYI, when Douglas knows he's in trouble, he is the one who rolls over and exposes his stomach to me. Needless to say, Douglas will not be going to the pound!

[Oliver & Henry's Mum]

I must add that I totally disagree with Rob's method of clamping the mouth shut!!! That is inviting aggression, and perhaps further down the road, a nip as your hands move towards his face.

Kathryn, from your description, it sounds like you are doing everything properly with Douglas. There is nothing wrong with having a dog that barks at delivery people, especially living where you do and being alone from time to time. My black Lab, Sally (1990-2003) did a very good job of scaring people away when I lived in the country, and was often alone with no one to hear me scream.

People who do "bad things" often will pose as sales people or delivery people to scope out a place. If they know you have a large dog, that doesn't appear to be too friendly, that's a GOOD THING!

Quite frankly, as I did check out the profile for "oldie moldy", it is blank and even indicates that he does not even have a dog. While everyone is welcome here, and input is appreciated, it is often after a person has spent a little bit of time on the Forum, introduced themselves, and read more than just one thread. No one answer is cut and dried, and can rarely be a "one size fits all".

Since I know Kathryn and Douglas, I have a good understanding of the issues she's already faced raising this darling puppy and how she has handled other situations so far. I must also add that mouthing during play is fine! Douglas knows his bite limits.

I am quite concerned about anyone suggesting that a dog's muzzle be held shut to teach them anything! Their masters hands should never touch their face in any manner that is not loving.

Good luck Kathryn...I'm sure this will sort itself. As Douglas matures, he will start to remember guests and smells. He will probably always bark at the doorbell (not a bad thing) and since he greets guests politely, once you have indicated they are welcome, I don't see any real issue.

[kurimusoda]

Thanks Deb! Barking on command is one of Douglas' tricks, so if I work with him more with greeting at the sound of a doorbell, I think we will be successful

[Zen]

Our monsters (Chessies) all seemed to go through phases where alerting us to _everything_ was their job (as far as they were concerned) and it just took patience (ok everything with Chesapeakes take patience... dang are they hardheaded) and a good amount of acknowledging to them that we got the message and everything was ok (which was generally done by talking to them and giving them a ear fluff or scratch as odd as that sounds) and after a few months they seemed to grasp what was important to bark at and what wasn't. Now, if one of current pair barks at something they don't need to alert us to a finger snap quiets them down.

Douglas is a big beautiful boy but still a puppy really, sounds like he's stretching his lungs and following his instincts, he just needs a little direction.

If some of that didn't make sense I apologise it's silly o'clock where I am and my brain isn't quite dialed in.

BTW post birthday piccies of your beasty, he looks like a gorgeous critter!

hugs for you and earfluffs for Douglas
Dawn

[Oliver & Henry's Mum]

Dawn, that's a great post. Thanks for sharing your experience.

[oldie moldy]

Sorry Ladies, I seem to have put my foot in it. The only reason I made the response I did was I thought I heard a owner worried about her dog who was moving into an out of control situation. I think she's right. The only responses I saw posted were so loosy-goosy, as I my opinion, to be useless. Nothing concrete was offered on how to control the barking. I'm trying to remember all the points; about handling the muzzle: handling the muzzle won't cause aggression, that's just silly. How do you clean your dogs teeth? What if your dog is choking on something? What if your dog picks up some rubbish that you don't want them to eat? What if God forbid, your dog gets mixed up with a porcupine and is full of quills? If that ever happens to you you'd better hope your dog is used to you handling it head, muzzle included. Clamping down on a unwanted bark isn't aggression nor hurtful to the dog, what you are doing is controlling a behavior until the dog starts to control it on it's own. When you make your dog heal correctly that's not hurtful or aggressive to the dog, you're teaching it to live in the world where if it runs free it will get run over.
I'll bet that your neighbor sooner or later is going to become annoyed at being barked at in his own yard or coming into his own front door. I'll bet when someone comes to your door you'd like to talk to them without the hounds of the baskervilles providing theme music. Responsible pet ownership is about having control of you dog. And let me hasten to say that your already doing it by asking if you ought to be worried. Now "Mum" thinks your doing everything properly with Douglas. Hmm....beg to differ. As I understand it you are at present defining the problem. At some point you will make a decision on what to do. I hope it's soon. Now dear old "Mum" has given us lots of reasons she likes her dogs to bark. Some may be valid for her situation and probably some are rationalizations because she can't control them. That's fine, they are her dog and her problems.
Really, you've already identified several places where it seems your dog barks too much. So the next step is to buy into some system of dog training that will help you gain control of your dog. When I did my first post I didn't know anything about you, except you have a barking dog and my input might be the only dog training input you'd be exposed to; God knows I know there are many other ways besides what I've outlined but I wanted you to have something. And it's true I have little patience with folks who start that "but on the other hand" stuff. What ever book you chose or system you adopt in training your dog, go with it and ignore those milk sops who would freeze you into inaction with their worries about little puppy poo.
Now "Mum" I realize now I blew into town without pulling at my forelock and giving you the proper respect a FNG (comes from nam) ought to render. I was just looking at the cute puppy pictures and found what I thought was a lady in need. I didn't fill out a profile, didn't know they had one. Dogs!!?? Shoot, I thought it was a guppy forum. Never had a dog. Had a turtle once, but that don't count. I'm long gone.

[kurimusoda]

...and it just took patience and a good amount of acknowledging to them that we got the message and everything was ok...

Thanks Dawn for your encouragement! Douglas has been pretty stubborn growing up, but with time and training he's managed to conquer some of his biggest challenges (such as dropping a coveted tennis ball at the dog park in front of strange dogs). I think this new challenge won't be any different

I will also try reassuring him after putting him into a sit+down. His barking is more characteristic of a dog that is simply trying to alert us (in contrast to fear or aggressive barking).

[kurimusoda]

Rob, thank you for your concern. Sorry about the long-winded response before, I just wanted to give you as much information as possible so that you could better understand our situation. The whole point of posting on a forum is to elicit the perspectives of others so to gather as much information as possible to choose what's best for Douglas. I appreciate you taking the time to outline your perspective, as it looks like you have our best interests in mind and only want to help.

The only reason I made the response I did was I thought I heard a owner worried about her dog who was moving into an out of control situation. I think she's right.

I'm a bit confused... Are you suggesting that I am moving into an out of control situation?

...you'd better hope your dog is used to you handling it head, muzzle included. Clamping down on a unwanted bark isn't aggression nor hurtful to the dog, what you are doing is controlling a behavior until the dog starts to control it on it's own.

I agree completely that your dog needs to be used to being handled. We plan on having human babies in the future and we've done our best with getting Douglas used to being handled--head, muzzle, feet, tail, etc. He is very laid back in this respect. In my specific case I'm not sure that handling his muzzle will lead to aggression. In fact, he loves getting his teeth brushed (it's in part due to the beef flavored toothpaste, lol)

I'll bet that your neighbor sooner or later is going to become annoyed at being barked at in his own yard or coming into his own front door.

We don't have a front yard to our duplex. Douglas barks when he hears our neighbors' car pull into their garage. As far as I know, he hasn't barked at them going into their front door. I'm not even sure I've been able to hear them go into their door.

I'll bet when someone comes to your door you'd like to talk to them without the hounds of the baskervilles providing theme music. Responsible pet ownership is about having control of you dog.

I really liked your "3 bark" tip. We will use that to gauge whether or not Douglas' barking is excessive. From our experience so far, I have been able to easily control the delivery man situation by using the command "go to bed," where Douglas will walk himself upstairs to our bedroom and go to his kennel. Some might find that as a solution to the barking, but I would prefer Douglas just voice a few alert barks (such as a maximum of 3 barks), and then when I signal him to stop, he stops. I think we can set that as our goal.

As I understand it you are at present defining the problem. At some point you will make a decision on what to do. I hope it's soon.

I think what everyone has provided me with a wonderful arsenal of tools with which I can tackle this training challenge. If I try out one method for a while and it is ineffective, I will try a different one. This is why I appreciate the "if not X, Y may work too" response, and why I was initially apprehensive at your one-method response. Rather than being confusing, I prefer to distill the many experiences of others' down to what I may apply in my own training. As Deb and others have said before, dog training isn't one-size-fits-all.

According to the "3 bark" rule, Douglas isn't barking as excessively as I had thought. The neighbors coming home situation is ruled out since I am easily able to stop his barking (he does get a couple in though) with simply a "no" and firm eye contact. Granted, even after having stopped barking he would still give his little "harumph" in protest. I think that's his way of saying "I was just trying to warn you..."

This alarm barking is just something new that has manifested, which was why I was surprised and possibly blew the situation up into more than what it actually was. I understand some people with German Shepherds have real barking issues where their dogs may bark all day non-stop and for no apparent reason.

So all that's left is the doorbell situation. He's barked at the delivery man before, he's also barked at hearing a doorbell sound on the TV. So I've downloaded a doorbell sound effect onto the computer and we're going to do training in this type of controlled situation. I'll post an update when we get some results in!

[oldie moldy]

Kathryn, First the "out of control" thing. Not you, the dog. The medium we are using leaves much room for "overs and shorts" an expression from artillery. Perhaps the barking isn't too bad now but I'd for sure want to have trained so that it was controllable now and in the future. Just what kind of personality your dog will finally have from such a mix will be interesting to see. If I were you, in my training, I'd err on the side of control given the size of your dog. You speak of all the advice; there is a reason for the expression "too many cooks spoil the stew". Everyone may be well intentioned (including me) but it's so easy to get conflicting advice. Here's some more! Go on Amazon; read the reviews on dog training books, pick out three or four. Get them through inter-library loan and read them. Make your "pick of the litter" and buy it, digest it, use it. With one book you will get a field proven guide for your training. The writer/trainer will have ironed out inconsistencies and given you the polished result.
The Nylabones: somewhere I read or heard about those things causing problems to the digestive tract, something about being plastic and not subject to digestive juices. I'd check with your vet. What I give my dogs is those huge end knobs to chew. Once the knob end is chewed off and only the bone part remains I take them up. I don't want them cracking off slivers of bone. The bad news is they get grease in the carpet, don't know any good solution for that except maybe a dog rug.
Big dogs and problems with their joints and skeletal structure: Big dogs in general and some breeds in particular have problems with their support system. Some of that there is nothing you can do but some activities can cause or promote damage. It's too large a field to try to address here, ask the vet, check out the subject on the web.
I do wish you and your dog the best,
Rob

[kian]

Time for me to chime in. First: you have to know why your dog is barking...boredom, danger, animals...etc. Some breeds are more prone to barking, it's hard wired. I can tell by my dogs bark what is amiss, if I get the boredom or animal (we are in the country) bark I quiet them. If is it is a stranger alert, I check it out before quieting them. I do not what them to quiet if someone comes around until I quiet them. My situation is different, however, I can travel with mine and keep them quiet in a motel room. It all comes down to training.

Deb is right, there is not one consistent method that works, every dog is different. Sometimes deflection works as it does with mine and I reward them. I deflect them with the "quiet" command and it works most of the time. I reward the quiet and deflect the bark. Sometimes you have take them out of the situation the minute they bark.

Getting your dog to focus on YOU, rather than the object of his barking. I can do that successfully with Ice, I have a different method I use with Allie. Jackson is just so sensitive, if I look at him wrong he stops. All dogs are different.

The one thing I have to address as a Professional Trainer NEVER grab your dogs muzzle in the heat of the moment, you can get a nasty bite!!!!!!!! It IS a aggressive move and can be interpeted by the dog as such. It doesn't work, dogs do not understand. This is different from teaching your dog to be handled by his muzzle and mouth, that is done in a non-aggressive setting not in the heat of the moment.

There is also a product sold in at most pet supplies, it is compressed air in a can and lets out a very loud air noise. NEVER point it at the dog. I have used it for some dogs and it worked beautifully, others not so much. You hold it away from the dog, let the noise work and at the same time give the quiet command. I keep it one word, "Quiet" "Enough" works good. This product isn't cheap, but It is worth a try. Doesn't hurt the dog and remember never point it at the dog. Use short quick spurts of air, using too much and it will empty fast.

Rob your suggestions weren't all bad, I just had to address this one. I would hate to have someone get bit, that would cause setback with being able to handle the muzzle. Rob you don't have to leave the forum, we all learn from each other, many times I stay out of it as many of the other members have it covered and I don't always chime in unless I need to.

[Oliver & Henry's Mum]

Rob:

For the record, my dogs do NOT bark incessantly and I thought I made myself quite clear as to why certain "types" of barking were acceptable in certain situations.

Each dog requires individual training methods depending on the personality of the dog, as Kian pointed out. There are certain areas with which I disagree almost completely and grabbing the muzzle and clamping it shut is one of them. I also thought I explained that very clearly, and NO, it's not "silly" to think that a dog might become afraid of its Master's hands if someone does that repeatedly, and most of all, incorrectly! One has to assume that the reader, who may not always be the Original Poster, will attempt such things with little or no experience and end up creating a bigger issue with which to deal.

In future, I would also prefer that I not be referred to as "dear old Mum" for obvious reasons, not the least of which speaks to a lack of decorum. I was not disrespectful to you. I simply did not agree with your method.

By all means, please stay and enjoy the Forums. We all learn from one another and I'm quite sure I could learn something from you, and perhaps you might even learn something as well.